safety

[captfizz]

hi,
i've just read david coulthards concerned remarks in the papers about the lack of marshals at testing.(" just an unpaid single marshal with a fire extinguisher at the track")
pleae excuse my ignorance but is marshalling completely voluntary - even at the very top with formula 1?
and something that really bothers me is why do the pit crews wear reathing protection but race marshallers not?

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by captfizz

pleae excuse my ignorance but is marshalling completely voluntary - even at the very top with formula 1?

Yes!

and something that really bothers me is why do the pit crews wear reathing protection but race marshallers not?

Pit crews are working in close proximity to a fire risk. Marshals are normally at a safe enough distance not to need such protection.

[captfizz]

but i see the marshals get right in there to deal with car fires with their dry powder extinguishers with little apparent regard for possible hazards like carbon fibres or toxic fumes.
are the hazards of man made mineral fibres and how to deal with them, included in the training you receive as marshallers?

[Paul Newns]

Our overalls are usually fire retardant. Some of us wear Nomex underwear but generally we just try to keep away from manmade fibres and stick with cotton or similar.

As for being unpaid, yes. Even with F1 we don't get paid, well actually we get £5 per day at the GP but I don't think that is what you mean. If you marshal a test day you get paid whatever the circuit pay.

[alec]

Originally Posted by captfizz

but i see the marshals get right in there to deal with car fires with their dry powder extinguishers with little apparent regard for possible hazards like carbon fibres or toxic fumes.
are the hazards of man made mineral fibres and how to deal with them, included in the training you receive as marshallers?

But at least we get some change to plan our attack. "Oh look there's a fire, right i'll do this this and this to stop it." whereas pit crew don't get the chance "Oh, i appear to be on fire". So their extra protection gives them time to react and get away. AFAIK there's not a huge risk from smoke, the main risks are from melted chemicals after the fire. but, as the saying goes, if you're inhaling that much of any smoke, you're too close.

[captfizz]

thanks, i really appreciate all your input on these matters.
though i sometimes think that the amount of money being made at the top end of motor sport should filter down to provide a central pool to help finance marshal's training and equipment as we all know about the expense in obtaining the right personal protective equipment.

[scorch]

The key question here is "TESTING". during a test day the circuit is manned NOT by vounteer marshalls but circuit staff, (doing the same job but being paid for it)

At a GP you can except hundreds of marshalls around the circuit and just about every 50m intervals whereas what i believe david is talking about is the quantity of circuit staff used around the circuit for example less than 30

And if you want to pay ££££ for a complete fire proof boots, overalls underwear you are welcome, personally i wear nomex underwear because it's warm, not for it's fire proof qualities.

[PVDA]

Maybe he should put his hands in his own deep but full pockets and pay for suitable marshal back up at Testing sessions if he's so concerned.

[Clive]

Originally Posted by PVDA

Maybe he should put his hands in his own deep but full pockets and pay for suitable marshal back up at Testing sessions if he's so concerned.

my sentiments exactly!

[EvilPumpkin]

Well in fairness to him, given the risks involved with GP cars I can understand why he'd be concerned.

Test days are a sensitive area. They're the responsibility of the circuits, but there don't seem to be any guidelines about what they have to provide in terms of safety facilities?

[Stephen Green]

Maybe the teams testing should get together and demand a higher number of trained marshals for test days. After all, it can't increase the costs of testing by a great amount?

[Woolley]

I read at the start of the season Williams spend £40k per day on gearbox parts alone...

I'd be quite happy to offer my services for 10% of that.

[captfizz]

what sticks in my throat a bit, that the phenomenal amounts of money that is generated by the top end of motorsport seems to stay there and i agree that maybe some money needs to be invested in and filter down to providing training and safety equipment especially looking at respiratory protection as with the increasing use of harmful materials in motor sport cars (and motorcycles) at just about any level ie carbon fibre composites in F1 and the likes down to carbon panels or parts on some older family cars which may be used in sunday enthuiasts meets or stock cars, how long will it be before someone is seriously or fatally affected by them.
after all carbon fibres may not only be harmful when involved with a fire but may also shatter into tiny pieces on impact causing lots of little airbourne particles to float about and possibly get inhaled or enter the body or bloodstream via open wounds by people in the area.
the effects of inhaled carbon fibre paricles on the human body are still realitively unknown by the various medical bodies around the world, but are widely believed as harmful, even similar to asbestos - i believe it is now common practice for all uk fire brigades to attend car fires in breathing apparatus.
and as i said before in an earlier thread, the pit crews wear respiratory protection - from fire...or from the large carbon dust clouds which come from worn brake discs?
if it's good enough for them...it's got to be good enough for you.

i thank you all again for your remarks which i find helpful - cheers

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

Well in fairness to him, given the risks involved with GP cars I can understand why he'd be concerned.

Test days are a sensitive area. They're the responsibility of the circuits, but there don't seem to be any guidelines about what they have to provide in terms of safety facilities?

At ALL the Liverpool Motor Club Track Days at Aintree there are the same number of marshals as at the sprints they run - and that includes a Rescue Unit. Some clubs/venues do have a care for their customers, however as the Evil one says there are no guidelines or rules governing test days.

My own view is that the customer should make up their own minds and vote with their feet if they are unhappy at the safety facilities.

Full marks for DC in raising the subject - now all it needs is someone to act!

[Alan Green]

I think this issue is now going to be raised by the GPDA...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/4564067.stm

Webber seems to be talking about medical facilities at test sessions, but big picture...

As someone else said 0.5% of a teams annual test budget should solve the issue.

Al.

[deadsquirrel]

I've heard figures of a test costing a team £100,000+ (that might be because they have a dodgy fuel tank) ;-)

Therefore, to pay 50 marshals £100 each for a days work would not break the bank! [I'm thinking incident marshals here]

[captfizz]

not just paying marshals but also to help finance marshals with protective clothing, equipment (like respiratory protective equipment) and up to date training.
it still mystifies me why a lucrative sport like F1 still depends on volunteers who must provide their own personal protective equipment at these events.

[Woolley]

Wouldn't the obvious answer be official test days only, possibly on the Friday before the Grands Prix...?

[emjaya]

Maybe thats why it is so lucrative.Why pay when people will marshall for free.
F1 is in the 21th century technologically,whilst marshalling seems to be stuck in the 1950's.

It seems the only time drivers worry about marshalls and the work they do is when there is danger to the drivers.

[Hepatic]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Wouldn't the obvious answer be official test days only, possibly on the Friday before the Grands Prix...?

You've found the real problem here, which is the teams non-agreement on testing. Having read autosport last night i'm a little wiser on this testing problem, and basically the FIA would love to regulate the testing in F1 but the teams, when asked, refused to let them. Some long time marshals set up a company to try and ensure that test days were covered as well as the racing weekends are, but without an official body to back them they are pretty much powerless.

The drivers are the ones who can turn this around. If the teams refuse to allow the FIA to govern testing, then the teams will have to finance the test days themselves. If the drivers refuse to test without "adequate" cover, then that forces the teams to think again. Personally i think it's come down to lazyness on the teams part - why pay extra for something that isn't "necessary" (in their eyes, at least).

I remember Elio's death at Paul Ricard but only now do i realise why he died so needlessly. We all know what it's like to loose a top class F1 driver, and certain people in the paddock should be doing more than most to ensure it never happens again, be it at a race weekend or in a test...

[Stephen Green]

It seems the only time drivers worry about marshalls and the work they do is when there is danger to the drivers.[/QUOTE]

Not true!

The BMMC and other clubs receive donations from many sources, some drivers and some teams, all of whom are very aware of the fine work we do for free.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by captfizz

not just paying marshals but also to help finance marshals with protective clothing, equipment (like respiratory protective equipment) and up to date training.

Marshals may be 'amateurs' in the sense of not being paid for what we do, but you may rest assured that we are 'professionals' in the way we are trained for the job & in our approach to the hazards we may encounter.

[scorch]

I think we are dealing with the usual gap between teams/drivers and the circuit, the teams spend all that money on actually running their car for spare parts, personell etc... and they will pay for the use of the circuit. The circuit provides the safety cover and the teams have no real say in the quality/quantity of the cover provided.

I think the FIA (being the only people neutral in the debate) need to establish a minimum requirement for testing, then the circuit will be responsible for providing it and the teams circuit hire charges will have to go up to reflect it.
BUT in an enviroment where the teams have 'no' money then i don't see much changeing.

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by scorch

I think we are dealing with the usual gap between teams/drivers and the circuit, the teams spend all that money on actually running their car for spare parts, personell etc... and they will pay for the use of the circuit. The circuit provides the safety cover and the teams have no real say in the quality/quantity of the cover provided.

Why not - I'm sure there's an agreement that for £x per day circuit hire, you will get a stated amount of safety cover. Therefore, if the hirer wants additional facilities, they can ask for them (at cost).

[captfizz]

please forgive me if i give anyone the wrong impression, i'm not saying and would never say that being an unpaid marshal means you're not as good as others, i'm just trying to say that with the advancement in new materials being used in motorsport the ways of dealing with them or other incidents is a continually evolving process and with the financial backing in place, updated training on new tactics, techniques and better equipment could become available to all (rather than just those who can afford it).