[Rules] Future Rule Changes

[Knowlesy]

I'm up for the return of sparks tbf.

[Sodemo]

I've wanted them to get rid of the wooden plank for decades. However then people bring up the fact that one of the possible theories over the death of Ayrton Senna was the fact that his car bottomed out excessively, causing the aero to stall. I'm no expert in car dynamics, nor am I crash investigator, however I personally subscribe to the steering column failure. Anyway, I digress, what would they do, replace the wooden plank with a titanium one? Would they do away with the plank all together?

[321Go]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

with a view to reintroducing.. ..glow in the dark disk-brakes

Maybe the strategy group should consider THIS to help with the glowing brakes?

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I've wanted them to get rid of the wooden plank for decades.

They still use a wooden plank under the car?

On a serious note.. I'm all for glowing brakes and sparking cars. They need to get rid of the brake ducts (which are more of an aero component these days than brake cooling) and bring back active suspension. Would be good additions to the regulations IMO.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I've wanted them to get rid of the wooden plank for decades. However then people bring up the fact that one of the possible theories over the death of Ayrton Senna was the fact that his car bottomed out excessively, causing the aero to stall. I'm no expert in car dynamics, nor am I crash investigator, however I personally subscribe to the steering column failure. Anyway, I digress, what would they do, replace the wooden plank with a titanium one? Would they do away with the plank all together?

The wooden plank was a great solution to the abuse of very expensive carbon fibre chassis on the track surface.
It also had to be completely flat and unbroken which neatly prevented the clever from misinterpreting the usually badly and inaccurately drafted F1 legislation.

But why not change the plank with titanium inserts to a high tech multi-layered carbon fibre and kevlar composite honeycomb structure of specified density and abrasion resistance, better yet, use sensors of dodgy reliability feeding back instantaneous ride heights to the event stewards. Or just use the bottom of the chassis!

Achieving what?

Every class of racing should think about the plank rule, it is cheap effective and stops huge damage to the underside of the car!

[S griffin]

Mentioning of sparks brings back memories of Senna and Mansell in Spain. Enough said.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by wnut

The wooden plank was a great solution to the abuse of very expensive carbon fibre chassis on the track surface.

The wooden plank did not replace anything, as it is just an extra layer. In terms of composites it did not change the underfloor.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

The wooden plank did not replace anything, as it is just an extra layer. In terms of composites it did not change the underfloor.

It does however discourage banging the expensive Carbon against the track, which can't have done it any good

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

It does however discourage banging the expensive Carbon against the track, which can't have done it any good

In any case the bottoming of the car is very undesirable, because it slows the car down and could make the driver lose control abruptly. However, as limited wear to the wooden plank is tolerated, it did not prevent the cars from bottoming. Either a very high ride height or active suspension would.

[Richard C]

Something like titanium pads clearly work, but they work too well. They allow the car to ride on them for extended periods. However, the wood will quickly wear if used in the same way. For the wood planks, occasional bottoming out is fine, dragging the bottom down the front straight is not. I haven't looked at those regulations for quite a awhile, but I believe they measure the plank post race to look for excessive wear.

Ultimately the question is if riding on stops for an extended period is OK or not. This goes to the points above about the Senna accident. I also suspect it was more of an issue with the steering column, but who wants to undo anything that can be viewed as a "safety" component. It also may be viewed as a regulation that is simple and "just works". So I don't see this getting changed anytime soon.

Regardless, if active suspension shows up, I expect aero will be set to work at a specific optimum ride height and it will be more of the active suspension that solves this problem more than anything else.

Lastly... Wood is an awesome material. It may not be quite as flashy as CF or other man made composites, but as a natural material, it is quite good.

Richard

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by 321Go

Maybe the strategy group should consider THIS to help with the glowing brakes?

[Pingguest]

The Strategy Work Group's proposals are mostly aimed to add visual drama artificially. I hope this is not the best they can come up with.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

I hope this is not the best they can come up with.

im more afraid of what they come up with next.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Something like titanium pads clearly work, but they work too well. They allow the car to ride on them for extended periods. However, the wood will quickly wear if used in the same way. For the wood planks, occasional bottoming out is fine, dragging the bottom down the front straight is not. I haven't looked at those regulations for quite a awhile, but I believe they measure the plank post race to look for excessive wear.

Ultimately the question is if riding on stops for an extended period is OK or not. This goes to the points above about the Senna accident. I also suspect it was more of an issue with the steering column, but who wants to undo anything that can be viewed as a "safety" component. It also may be viewed as a regulation that is simple and "just works". So I don't see this getting changed anytime soon.

Regardless, if active suspension shows up, I expect aero will be set to work at a specific optimum ride height and it will be more of the active suspension that solves this problem more than anything else.

Lastly... Wood is an awesome material. It may not be quite as flashy as CF or other man made composites, but as a natural material, it is quite good.

Richard

My knowledge of motorsport isn't finite, so forgive me if I have missed something. To my (limited) knowledge, no other motorsport series runs with a wooden plank on the underside of the car. So, have there been any similar incidents to the one that supposedly caused the Senna crash? To my knowledge Indycar used to have flat bottoms and they used to strike up sparks, the same with Formula Renault. What I am asking really is has there been other crashes where the cause has been proven to have stemmed from severe bottoming? (a genuine question).

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

My knowledge of motorsport isn't finite

Modest.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

My knowledge of motorsport isn't finite, so forgive me if I have missed something. To my (limited) knowledge, no other motorsport series runs with a wooden plank on the underside of the car. So, have there been any similar incidents to the one that supposedly caused the Senna crash? To my knowledge Indycar used to have flat bottoms and they used to strike up sparks, the same with Formula Renault. What I am asking really is has there been other crashes where the cause has been proven to have stemmed from severe bottoming? (a genuine question).

According to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skid_block

F3000 & F3 have also jused Jabroc.

I thought Indycars did too, but apparently not.

I liked the sparks!

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

The Strategy Work Group's proposals are mostly aimed to add visual drama artificially. I hope this is not the best they can come up with.

As usual they are aiming at what people have asked for and continue to deliver.

Sparks! I miss sparks!
OK, here you go...

[Sodemo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AekgFOcqOkg

These Indycars can seem to bottom out at over 200mph. This is what I mean, it seems to be quite commonplace in other series, but yet, have there been accidents because of this? You'd have thought that if there was a danger, then this kind of racing where the speed is constantly high would expose that risk.

I still don't think bottoming caused Senna's crash, i'm sorry for bringing it up, I know its an emotive topic for many, but when such a phenomenon like this (bottoming) is commonplace and has been so for years, where does the risk come from?

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AekgFOcqOkg

These Indycars can seem to bottom out at over 200mph. This is what I mean, it seems to be quite commonplace in other series, but yet, have there been accidents because of this? You'd have thought that if there was a danger, then this kind of racing where the speed is constantly high would expose that risk.

I still don't think bottoming caused Senna's crash, i'm sorry for bringing it up, I know its an emotive topic for many, but when such a phenomenon like this (bottoming) is commonplace and has been so for years, where does the risk come from?

Bottoming out on its own may not cause a car to crash but it could when a number of other factors come into play.
At the time of Senna's accident active suspension had recently been banned and Williams was the team using it for the longest period.

With a flat bottomed car to work well aerodynamically it was necessary to have a stable platform and as close as possible to constant ride height. If a car car with a flat bottom bottomed out at the wrong time there could be very little air going under the car causing a complete loss of underfloor downforce.
Were this to happen in the cornering phase then a loss of control by the driver is quite possible.

[Pingguest]

One could doubt the necessity of the wooden plank since the introduction of the stepped floor in the 1995 season.

[Knowlesy]

Was the wooden plank introduced to prevent bottoming? I thought it was purely to cut downforce levels in a very significant and dramatic way, by forcing a raised ride height.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Was the wooden plank introduced to prevent bottoming? I thought it was purely to cut downforce levels in a very significant and dramatic way, by forcing a raised ride height.

It would have raised the ride height and changed the underbody aero and the fact that it wasen't allowed to be worn away meant that running as close to the ground was no longer an option.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Something like titanium pads clearly work, but they work too well. They allow the car to ride on them for extended periods. However, the wood will quickly wear if used in the same way. For the wood planks, occasional bottoming out is fine, dragging the bottom down the front straight is not. I haven't looked at those regulations for quite a awhile, but I believe they measure the plank post race to look for excessive wear.

Ultimately the question is if riding on stops for an extended period is OK or not. This goes to the points above about the Senna accident. I also suspect it was more of an issue with the steering column, but who wants to undo anything that can be viewed as a "safety" component. It also may be viewed as a regulation that is simple and "just works". So I don't see this getting changed anytime soon.

Regardless, if active suspension shows up, I expect aero will be set to work at a specific optimum ride height and it will be more of the active suspension that solves this problem more than anything else.

Lastly... Wood is an awesome material. It may not be quite as flashy as CF or other man made composites, but as a natural material, it is quite good.

Richard

Good post Richard!

Especially the wood bit, very underrated material!

If you want sparks all you need are titanium rubbing blocks, that is the material that generates the showers of sparks that look so spectacular.

Titanium framing on edges of the plank should do a great job.

[321Go]

A great article on the proposed changes.

Analysis: Active suspension, sparks, and glowing brakes – The F1 Strategy Group’s proposals to spice up F1

Worth a read.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by 321Go

A great article on the proposed changes.

Analysis: Active suspension, sparks, and glowing brakes – The F1 Strategy Group’s proposals to spice up F1

Worth a read.

I had forgotten about the vortex trails, they were spectacular!
Solid wing end plates and constant chord wings should save money and bring them back, but they would just be artificial now!

Why not give fairy lights a go too!


P.S. Take more down force off!

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by wnut

Good post Richard!

Especially the wood bit, very underrated material!

If you want sparks all you need are titanium rubbing blocks, that is the material that generates the showers of sparks that look so spectacular.

Titanium framing on edges of the plank should do a great job.

They should probably replace the wood with ivory. F1 is a rich man's sport, and who needs elephants anyway.