Panoz to return to LMP1

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by cdsavage

The article mentions LMP1, but a big V8 prototype would still work from 2011+ with the currently planned rules, if it ran in LMP2 - using a GT2 corvette engine.

No it won't. Just read http://www.lemans.org/sport/sport/re...de_2011_gb.pdf

The rules for 2011 are quite clear:

• LMP1: 520 bhp, 900 kg
  • Diesel: 3.7 liter 8 cylinders with twin turbos
  • Petrol: 3.4 liter 8 cylinders normally aspirated
  • Petrol: 2 liter up to 6 cylinders single turbo
• LMP2: 420 bhp, 900 kg
  • Diesel: Series production 4.0 liter 8 cylindres (with original supercharging system)
  • Petrol: Series production 4.0 liter based on 2010 GT2
  • Petrol: Strictly series production 4.5 liter (according to the results obtained in 2009)

[broadrun96]

Is the 4.0 GT2 based engine rule the seize for GT2 of just the max that can be brought over to LMP2? I didn't see anything so far about the GT2 rules for 2011 and beyond. And would GM be allowed to run a 4.5L if it was downsized from a 5L+ Vette street engine or would that end up being classified as a race engine and then be limited to 4.0? Think it would also end any Vette engine in an LMP1, something about a 3.4L engine just doesn't sound like an workable size for the name. Maybe a GM make but a Vette?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

No it won't. Just read http://www.lemans.org/sport/sport/re...de_2011_gb.pdf




The rules for 2011 are quite clear:

• LMP1: 520 bhp, 900 kg
  • Diesel: 3.7 liter 8 cylinders with twin turbos
  • Petrol: 3.4 liter 8 cylinders normally aspirated
  • Petrol: 2 liter up to 6 cylinders single turbo
• LMP2: 420 bhp, 900 kg
  • Diesel: Series production 4.0 liter 8 cylindres (with original supercharging system)
  • Petrol: Series production 4.0 liter based on 2010 GT2
  • Petrol: Strictly series production 4.5 liter (according to the results obtained in 2009)

Let me just say that A new Panoz P-1 will/would be great, if!

As to the 2011 rules being so clear. Sorry, they're not! We have already seen the ACO waffle on hybrids, while I would agree that the outlines that have been set out are probably pretty firm for the standard (per se) cars. But we (IMO) should also take into account what is not been put out, in context with the current clime. The ACO is in the process of re-defining the GTs and as such the top GT homologated engines that could be allowed into P-1 are still in flux. We also know that the rules are still under evaluation by the ACO per Jean-Claude Plassart, Here , paying attention to the last section.


L.P.

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by Stranger

Let's just say there is a reason only Autoweek has it

Autosport is reporting it too, saying a debut at this year's Petit Le Mans could be possible. I also quote the following from the magazine:

Originally Posted by Autosport

The car has been conceived as a coupe and is being designed around a Chevrolet Corvette C6.R GT1 engine

Sounds good to me! Nice to see someone thinking differently, even if it will be a challenge to get it right. I think any news of new entries in the current climate is good, can't wait to see the progress of this new beast!

[dxk1]

It will certainly be nice to continue to hear the rumble of that big Chevy engine for at least a little bit longer! Also, for the future, would it be possible to resurect the 3400 cc V6 from the old Corvette GTP days?

DK

[deggis]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

We also know that the rules are still under evaluation by the ACO per Jean-Claude Plassart, Here , paying attention to the last section.

But that link is from September, the PDF in gwyllion's post was released in the end of November. Do you just mean that since the rules were already once postponed from 2010 to 2011, it might happen again?

Postponing to 2012 would actually make a lot of sense... it would help all of the current manufacturers involved (except Mazda - no automatic move to P1). One more year for R15, ARX-02 and possibly DBR12. Would also ease Peugeot's situation, if they actually plan to continue after this year, since they're not going to build a new car just for 2010 (unless ACO is planning to mess up things by making 2011-ready engines competitive).

Why would Panoz want to be in LMP2?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by deggis

But that link is from September, the PDF in gwyllion's post was released in the end of November. Do you just mean that since the rules were already once postponed from 2010 to 2011, it might happen again?

Postponing to 2012 would actually make a lot of sense... it would help all of the current manufacturers involved (except Mazda - no automatic move to P1). One more year for R15, ARX-02 and possibly DBR12. Would also ease Peugeot's situation, if they actually plan to continue after this year, since they're not going to build a new car just for 2010 (unless ACO is planning to mess up things by making 2011-ready engines competitive).

Why would Panoz want to be in LMP2?

No I do not mean it will be posponed again! The PDF that gwyllion posted does not controvert the release from the conference. The PDF is a firm outline for the 2011 rules, but it is an outline. There are, many, many things that have yet to be decided on for that rule-set, much less put to pen!


L.P.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

• LMP1: 520 bhp, 900 kg
• LMP2: 420 bhp, 900 kg

Everytime so depressing to see those target hp figures.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

No I do not mean it will be posponed again! The PDF that gwyllion posted does not controvert the release from the conference. The PDF is a firm outline for the 2011 rules, but it is an outline. There are, many, many things that have yet to be decided on for that rule-set, much less put to pen!

Okay.
I am prepared for the (sad) scenario that the engine regs will be just like that. I hope for a defensive victory though. Then again not much materialized from the original "EVO" plans even though it is not same situation.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by deggis

Okay.
I am prepared for the (sad) scenario that the engine regs will be just like that. I hope for a defensive victory though. Then again not much materialized from the original "EVO" plans even though it is not same situation.

Well, playing Devil's Advocate here. How do we not know that whatever the new 2011 aero rules are do not push us down the "EVO" road a bit. In that they will adjust the front aero rules in a way that makes it more conducive to "Brand" the cars? Somewhat the route that Audi has taken with the R-15's nose where the aero is manipulated inside the bodywork of the cars more, and the Lola Aston Martin????



L.P.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by zac510

Yeah sorry, I was thinking of 2011 ahead when they can't use the big Chev

Oh, no, I agree with you. The inlets and overall height are a huge hurdle. Let's see what they come up with.

Something to keep in mind is that Chevy (GM) does make other engines than the LS V8s... could be something very different.

[CTD]

http://www.gm.com/experience/technol...tar_engine.jsp
Just found this!
a 4,8l North Star V8!

[CTD]

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...2009/09car.htm
And here is all engines produced by GM in 2009

They can down size the 3,5l V6 LZ4 used in the Chevrolet Impala to 3,4l?

[scoff]

When you use direct injection, do you still have these trumpet problems?

Otherwise turbo's (or compressors)??? (though they wouldn't fit the panoz image I think).

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by CTD

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en...2009/09car.htm
And here is all engines produced by GM in 2009

They can down size the 3,5l V6 LZ4 used in the Chevrolet Impala to 3,4l?

They already have a 3.4L racing engine, which was used in the Corvette GTP project in IMSA racing in the mid 80s.

DK

[CTD]

Originally Posted by dxk1

They already have a 3.4L racing engine, which was used in the Corvette GTP project in IMSA racing in the mid 80s.
DK

But can such an old engine be used now?

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by CTD

But can such an old engine be used now?

I agree, it is an old engine, but today's engine modifiers could work with it and make something of it. Remember, that engine generated around 900-1000 hp. It's a basic racing engine design. New materials can work wonders.

DK

[CTD]

Originally Posted by dxk1

I agree, it is an old engine, but today's engine modifiers could work with it and make something of it. Remember, that engine generated around 900-1000 hp. It's a basic racing engine design. New materials can work wonders.
DK

But do you think it will work with todays air restrictors, also?.
With all the replacements which it will need, then wouldn't it just be better to build an completely new engine, for a little extra cost!? (an engine which is optimized for the Panoz if they choose it!)

[XJR14/WSC95]

One of the main objectives of the Panoz LMP07 was to have a greatly reduced frontal area when compared to LMP 1 Roadster S. Sitting a 5 litre plus V8 out the front combined with rear tyres on the front is going to have the aerodynamic efficiency of a house brick. In J.A. Martin and Michael J. Fullers book GTP Race Cars (Must have for all Sportscar fans) there is a drawing by Bob Riley of a front engine GTP car using a Porsche twin turbo flat 6. I have often thought that this kind of engine would have been ideal for the LMP07. Having said that I don’t think a N/A 3.4 litre flat 6 is going to be able to compete with a 3.7 litre twin turbo diesel.

[fieldodreams79]

would cool to see an engine similar to the turbo Caddy NorthStars.

regardless, i think we are all missing the big picture (besides the fact that my FAVORITE brand will be back in prototypes) is the step away from Elan Power for GM.

I thought Robert Yates and/or Ford built the engines for the one of LMPs.
according to mike, it was Elan and Zytek:
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/panozlmp1.html
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/panozlmp07.html
o well....

but like i said, i feel that this is big for GM to get back in P racing, no matter how small an effort, especially considering their financial state.

[CTD]

Will the car be supported by GM?.
Isn't it just the engines?, and that might as well be paid out of Panoz own pockets!?

[AMT]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Well , that original roadster was a very competitive machine . It was only really beaten by the Audi R8 and BMW V12 LMR , but what wasnt . It was against full works entries .

I was gutted to see them leave LMP1 ..... so you can just imagine how happy I am with this news .

I think we beat the Audis 4 or 5 times. Not many cars have done that since.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by deggis

Everytime so depressing to see those target hp figures.

There is an upside, the ACO can leave engine regs alone for the forseable future, so manufacturer's can invest in engines without fear of them being banned/restricted.

Out of the blocks they'll have 550bhp, so it will be interesting to see the race to 600bhp+, P2 in recent years gave us a glimpse of the potential of these engines.

The ACO needed to this as they'll be spending most of their time intergrating hybrid technologies.

[dxk1]

All of the discussion with Scott Atherton and others during the Speed TV coverage of Sebring seemed to be saying that the Panoz return to LMP1 was an unfounded rumor. Did anyone else also get that impression?

DK

[deggis]

Originally Posted by JAG

There is an upside, the ACO can leave engine regs alone for the forseable future, so manufacturer's can invest in engines without fear of them being banned/restricted.

Out of the blocks they'll have 550bhp, so it will be interesting to see the race to 600bhp+, P2 in recent years gave us a glimpse of the potential of these engines.

The ACO needed to this as they'll be spending most of their time intergrating hybrid technologies.

Interesting perception... but slightly less interesting scenario is that restrictors will be adjusted as the development goes on, so the figures will never get near 600. I'm worried about the "power-grip" ratio (spectacle), especially as weight and tyre sizes will remain same.