Track marshalls narrowly miss disaster at 2011 Grand Prix de Pau

[PVDA]

Stumbled across this on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b8zM7mAH6o

I love how they let him know what they think ofthe whole thing

[ghinzani]

yep watched it live, they did some great Gallic arm waving and remonstrating with the culprit too. Zut alors!!

[ascarracinguk]

theres been far too many incidents like this recently.....gt3 last weekend 2 cars were battling going into a yellow flag zone resulting in a merc spinning and hitting the wall a metre away from marshals recovering a ferrari

[Bodysnatcher]

I was on the next post down, waving the red. Looked worse from my perspective. Some of our team went to assist - at the time was not sure if it was to form a lynch mob, or to save the driver from one.

[Hepatic]

add to this the fact that 4 F1 drivers posted fastest laps during a yellow flag at the GP at the weekend. Apparently they got let off with a reprimand as they all posted fastest laps on new tyres. Thanks, 'cos lifting off in a sector to drop what probably amounts to no more than 5mph makes a real difference when we are trackside snatching one of your colleagues from a gravel trap...

[HairyDJ]

Never mind having a drivers' rep on the disciplinary panel - time to add a marshal

[ascarracinguk]

forgot about the 2 scary accidents at brands the other week with caterhams and formula renault.....people need to be careful out there

[Richard Duvall]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

add to this the fact that 4 F1 drivers posted fastest laps during a yellow flag at the GP at the weekend. Apparently they got let off with a reprimand as they all posted fastest laps on new tyres. Thanks, 'cos lifting off in a sector to drop what probably amounts to no more than 5mph makes a real difference when we are trackside snatching one of your colleagues from a gravel trap...

Maybe now they've got these gizmos that control when they can use the DRS they could also have a limiter turned on in yellow sectors?

[Hubble]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

add to this the fact that 4 F1 drivers posted fastest laps during a yellow flag at the GP at the weekend. Apparently they got let off with a reprimand as they all posted fastest laps on new tyres. Thanks, 'cos lifting off in a sector to drop what probably amounts to no more than 5mph makes a real difference when we are trackside snatching one of your colleagues from a gravel trap...

The incident was in an area where they were already off throttle, so couldn't lift any more - that's why they were reprimanded not penalised. The data was analysed by the FIA stewards who concluded that they should not be penalised.

Yes, I'm sure they could have braked, but was it really necessary given the location of the stricken car...? I guess not...

[Dan Friel]

Just watching the footage from the weekend now. The Pau marshals are really really sharp. Great stuff.

I like the Lotus Elise safety car too.

[Hepatic]

Originally Posted by Hubble

The incident was in an area where they were already off throttle, so couldn't lift any more - that's why they were reprimanded not penalised. The data was analysed by the FIA stewards who concluded that they should not be penalised.

Yes, I'm sure they could have braked, but was it really necessary given the location of the stricken car...? I guess not...

If one can make it there at those speeds then so can everyone else, so yes IMHO they should have braked. If they did that we might not have to rely on safety cars so much. I was at Cadwell this weekend and a yellow 2 posts up from us had all the drivers going significantly slower through that sector as it was dealt with. If amateurs can do it, why not professionals?

[Terrible-Tones]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

If amateurs can do it, why not professionals?

Slightly off topic but the above makes me think of "4 wheels off" and BTCC drivers. I thought professional drivers were supposed to be able to drive accurately?

Just my two pennies worth.....

[Bob Pearson]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

forgot about the 2 scary accidents at brands the other week with caterhams and formula renault.....people need to be careful out there

I'm no longer in BARC Renault, so I don't have first hand info on the startline incident at Brands. However, I couldn't see a red flag being displayed on the outside of the track in the picture in the Autosport. If the C of C's assertion that the red flag was called as the cars exited Graham Hill bend was correct I would have expected to see one there.
Red flags apart, I thought BARC Renault now ran a safety car system with the helmet bleepers, so why a red flag. Stand to be corrected there if wrong.
Having raced at Brands many times in various single seaters, I would suggest that the fact that there wasn't contact suggests to me that the drivers were being careful and did damn well to avoid it. That was potentially very serious as the view round the end of the pit wall from a single seater is very short and a BARC Renault is starting to get along quite well by then.

[exflagman]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

If one can make it there at those speeds then so can everyone else, so yes IMHO they should have braked. If they did that we might not have to rely on safety cars so much. I was at Cadwell this weekend and a yellow 2 posts up from us had all the drivers going significantly slower through that sector as it was dealt with. If amateurs can do it, why not professionals?

Do you really want a car doing 150 mph suddenly braking in the middle of a corner where it is presumably running at the limit of adhesion for that corner?

From the onboard footage from Vettel's car there is only about 3-4 seconds between the view of the Lotus going off and the car passing the green light at the end of the 'restricted' zone, so I am not sure just how much sector time adjustment could have been achived by the drivers - presumably the reason that no penalty was applied.

Given that the stationary car was right under the flag point IMHO it would have been more effective for that point to display a green and the previous point the yellow, but given that the flag marshals are now controlled from Race Control they probably didn't have any option .

[westfieldbend]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

I'm no longer in BARC Renault, so I don't have first hand info on the startline incident at Brands. However, I couldn't see a red flag being displayed on the outside of the track in the picture in the Autosport. If the C of C's assertion that the red flag was called as the cars exited Graham Hill bend was correct I would have expected to see one there.
Red flags apart, I thought BARC Renault now ran a safety car system with the helmet bleepers, so why a red flag. Stand to be corrected there if wrong.
Having raced at Brands many times in various single seaters, I would suggest that the fact that there wasn't contact suggests to me that the drivers were being careful and did damn well to avoid it. That was potentially very serious as the view round the end of the pit wall from a single seater is very short and a BARC Renault is starting to get along quite well by then.

I do not believe red flag was called until at least surtees/clearways, but cannot be sure of this as I couldn't see any red lights. Bear in mind that red flag has to flow around the circuit from the startline or circuit red lights as there is no radio communication between CoC and flag points that marshals are allowed to act on.

I presume the clerk of course had no other option than to go red due to the situation - i.e. needed racing to cease immediately due to the situation on the grid - although in theory with new SC rules there shouldn't really be any difference.

Why there was a reluctance to go SC straight away with an incident on the grid I do not understand! - the lap at brands really is too short to do anything more than pushing one undamaged car out of the way.

What probably should have happened was the SC be on standby at the back of the grid at the start of the race (Like in many series) and thus be able to be on circuit prior to the startline incident. (And obviously SC called sooner)

[Piglet]

Where was the safety car for Brands Renault race? It's the problem with deploying from either adjacent to pit exit or P. 8 - with an Indy circuit startline incident there is very little time to do anything.

[westfieldbend]

Originally Posted by Piglet

Where was the safety car for Brands Renault race? It's the problem with deploying from either adjacent to pit exit or P. 8 - with an Indy circuit startline incident there is very little time to do anything.

Safety car standby position was post 8.

[Hepatic]

Originally Posted by exflagman

Do you really want a car doing 150 mph suddenly braking in the middle of a corner where it is presumably running at the limit of adhesion for that corner?

From the onboard footage from Vettel's car there is only about 3-4 seconds between the view of the Lotus going off and the car passing the green light at the end of the 'restricted' zone, so I am not sure just how much sector time adjustment could have been achived by the drivers - presumably the reason that no penalty was applied.

Given that the stationary car was right under the flag point IMHO it would have been more effective for that point to display a green and the previous point the yellow, but given that the flag marshals are now controlled from Race Control they probably didn't have any option .

Well if the FIA ran sensible flag rules like stationary yellow they would have had enough warning before the corner to have been able reduce speed...

[Drummer]

Tickles me, how so many people b***h at marshals for being on the track, calling them idiots, mentalists and so forth. I mean, sure, we're all a bit cracked, like, or we really wouldn't do it, but there's good reason to go to the rescue of a stranded driver, especially when you're covered by yellows, or when there's a red being shown. I think there needs to be a bit more attention paid by not only drivers, but by the circuit organizers, who place the flag posts. If it's tricky to spot a flag somewhere, don't have it there! It's simple really! I always thought that a series wasn't allowed to race on a circuit, until it was definite that visibility of flag posts was good, from anywhere on the circuit. Where's the logic in having cars that are, for example, so low, that the driver can't see, say, post 8 until he's right on top of it, because the barrier is in the way? (Made up scenario) But it just makes so little sense to me. If a post is difficult to see somewhere, there should be another, or the post ought to be moved, to somewhere it can always be seen.

Corrr, sorry, I'm just feeling in a bit of a rantish mood today, lol. I probably made no sense whatsoever there, but oh well, you'll get used to me, lol!

[Piglet]

The current problem with flag posts is that the flags are waved by soft squishy people and nobody is very keen to put those soft squishy people in the direct line of the cars as that is usually seen to be the position of danger.

I'd like to see more by way of additional light panels, lights don't replace flag marshals - flaggies are able to convey a lot of meaning in the way they wave their flag but you can put lights in those "straight on" positions where you wouldn't put soft squishy people.

Having said that there are circuit red lights at Brands so this should have been illuminated once the red had been called.

[Drummer]

Originally Posted by Piglet

flags are waved by soft squishy people...

Well, put skinny, lanky little beggars like me there then! XD I can see your point, but they really hadn't ought to race things like that, if you can't see flag posts from the driving position. They'll be introducing blindfolds next, because "the drivers go faster when they can't see where they're going!" LOL!

[Piglet]

Flag points are in a position where they can be seen, they but they aren't always in the positions where you would put unmanned posts. In an ideal world in most places you'd probably want flag points on the apex of the corner as that's where a driver is likely to be looking - but I doubt you'd get many volunteers for those points... Circuits cater for all types and sizes of cars and bikes so there is always an element of compromise.

Drivers who are engrossed in a battle or just trying to get their car around a corner without flying into the gravel don't always take their eyes of the things immediately around them to look for flags.

It's worth looking at incar footage to see how difficult it can be to see flags (and to see how you can help drivers to see flags if you are flagging). It's not an excuse for drivers not obeying flags, the standard requires that a driver is able to look for flags but there is a reality that with manual flag posts flags won't always be in the best positions.

[Bob Pearson]

flaggies are able to convey a lot of meaning in the way they wave their flag

Its interesting you have said that. I suspect this was carried out with great effect at Croft over the weekend.
The Clubmans qualifying on Saturday was red flagged apparently because a dog was on the track at Tower. Bearing in mind that a drivers instructions for a red flag in qualifying are to cease driving at race speeds and return to the pit road, the marshals managed to contain the cars and bring them to a halt on the straight leading to Tower, so allowing them to press on with their safari ans subsequent capture. I can only assume that the marshals involved managed to flag in such a manner that the requirement for an early halt was somehow conveyed. A first class effort I thought.