ALMS 2012 Discussion

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

What? You've got exactly one car with an all pro lineup in LMP's.

Try to spin this with whatever rose coloured glasses you've got, but it is what it is.

As recently as a few years ago, we had as many as 11 regular season full pro lineups. That was hardly club racing. That was pro racing at it's best.




Wow, Lola, Oak... that'll really bring in the people to the track...it is irrelevant what people spend, it's how marketable things are.





Sure.. we'll get a bunch more privateers driving stuff around. Meanwhile the Pro Risi teams exits, the pro BMW factory exits.... It becomes more amateur hour.



The business side is still a complete mystery? I can just see Audi NA saying... hey look, that series has no ROI, has fewer and fewer fans watching, and attending... but it has a strong foundation of privateers, let's race there. Completely ludicrous. PLM attendance for one, will be a disaster year/year...

The two keys for future success, are the strength of the premier categories, that the factories might be interested in. LMP1 shows no growth, but new chassis, GT(E) shows shrinkage. AFAIK, Corvette Racing's budget is approved to the end of next year... Lose them, along with Risi and BMW... and that is possible, and you've got a pretty sad series.

The norm for the ALMS is not all pro line-ups throughout the field, it's a couple of factory Audi's with a valiant effort from Dyson keeping things interesting, a GT1 field consisting of Corvette and the odd Saleen/Maserati, and GT2 resembling a Porsche Cup. As you regularly state, TV ratings were in decline when the series was at it's LMP peak in 2006-8, so other issues are major factors.

The series almost went to the wall, it's a pipe dream to expect full fields of factory and all-pro crews, the series needs time to find it's feet, priority number one being to build up it's LMP field. By it's very nature P2 and LMPC are pro/am, but they're exactly what the ALMS needs to combat GA DP's and give privateers a stable, affordable route into LMP, who once acclimatised can look to make the next step.

The series has a leg up on GA through the ACO link, potential ALMS entrants such as Audi, Porsche, Honda and Toyota are already in the sport, it's a case of the series making themselves an attractive proposition, stage one of which is healthy, competitive classes. I watched BPR GT grow from a motley grid of single make cars and odd-balls into the ultimate factory GT1 battle, it would still be thriving today if Ratel had ditched the production pretense in '96, and moved swiftly to the ACO LMGTP/LMP900 structure.

The ALMS is starting from a significantly higher base, IMO it looks to have turned a corner, two years on from a real worry it could crash. Last season Muscle Milk and Dyson were in a holding pattern, they could easily have packed up and made a fresh start in GA in 2012, instead we see both with multi-year ALMS commitments with all new chassis, while the joke that was P2 will be hotly contested and attractive for teams evaluating the series. GTE is the only class with question marks, that was predicted two years back, BMW dip in and out of series while RISI have a great PR team putting forward their case, but I can't be the only one who thinks they have an over inflated opinion of their importance, with rumours of the Viper, Mclaren and GT3 models, the class still has potential for factories and privateers.

If you buy into ACO racing the WEC cannot be seen as a rival, rather a business necessity, expectations for the ALMS need to adjust. Far from having a downer, 2012 looks set to be the most promising season for some time, there's a more even spread of entrants across classes, and the fact we no longer read anyone seriously questioning the series future or arguing for a GT only series is progress in my mind.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

The norm for the ALMS is not all pro line-ups throughout the field, it's a couple of factory Audi's with a valiant effort from Dyson keeping things interesting, a GT1 field consisting of Corvette and the odd Saleen/Maserati, and GT2 resembling a Porsche Cup. As you regularly state, TV ratings were in decline when the series was at it's LMP peak in 2006-8, so other issues are major factors.

What you speak of was 2004 and 2005 seasons.... for LMP... otherwise you are flat wrong.

So, are two seasons of the first ten the norm, or are eight of ten seasons the norm?

The GT1 field mostly consisted of pro drivers, and the "Porsche Cup", won by PTG BMW in 99', BMW second in 00', BMW won drivers, manufacturers and team in 01', pro Risi second in GT in 03' (though it was a whitewash for wins), Risi won team champ in 06', 07', Ferrari lost manufacturers by 5 points in 08'..and we know the history since then.

So, yes it was practically a Porsche cup for three maybe four years.. but there has been competition in the other 7-8 years... so NO that isn't the norm either. All of these championships have been won by pro-drivers too.

Really, just making things up doesn't help an argument at all.

There are many issues here, poor management of the ALMS, poor management by the ACO and poor management by the WEC/FIA.

------------------------

I'll deal with the rest later, particularly the part about turning the corner.... I'll agree, it sure has turned a corner... Once confidence is lost in management... it's lost.

[JAG]

The first thing to deal with is the world, and sport, have changed dramatically since 2008. Yesterday saw some positive developments for the series, steps that need to be taken before we can hope to get back to grids like 2008, to dismiss it out of hand as expensive club racing..............it's not an accurate description and doesn't acknowledge how series grow and attract factory interest over time, rarely does a series start from day one with factory teams, there were unique reasons why the ALMS did.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

The first thing to deal with is the world, and sport, have changed dramatically since 2008. Yesterday saw some positive developments for the series, steps that need to be taken before we can hope to get back to grids like 2008, to dismiss it out of hand as expensive club racing..............it's not an accurate description and doesn't acknowledge how series grow and attract factory interest over time, rarely does a series start from day one with factory teams, there were unique reasons why the ALMS did.

The world hasn't changed since 2008, it is the same as it has been for centuries. Cycles, fear, greed and so on. The Sport, yes it has changed, due to the creation of the WEC taking away the Professional LMP teams, and factory teams.

How do sportscar series grow then in the modern era?

FIA GT was due to factory interest, as it grew from BPR. The ALMS had factory interest. The WEC had factory interest. LMS had Audi factory interest, and a desire to race in Europe... FIA GT in it's latest changes had factory interest... hmmmm

Rarely do series see all of the money and manufacturer support leave, and survive without a complete reorganization. This has been deteriorating for many years, and continues to. There has been no catalyst for change to make it professional again, in fact the opposite.

I'm sorry that you do not agree this is expensive club racing, but I fail to see it as much else. ONE amateur LMP team, with PRO drivers... the rest are filled with amateurs, and ride buyers. I'll admit, Chris Dyson is a VERY GOOD amateur, as good as the sport has seen. But that doesn't change our reality. It doesn't matter how fast the cars are, or how expensive they are, how pretty the transport trucks are, if the pro teams aren't there, it isn't pro racing anymore. If it isn't pro racing, it is amateur aka, club racing. That is what it has started to become, and that trend will continue.

What you call positive changes, are for numbers in the LMP2 category only, but they just reinforce what the series has become. By the start of the season, we shall still see real ACO cars drop in numbers year/year. If down is the new up... fair enough.

2008 Laguna 18 all pro teams
2009 Laguna 12
2010 Laguna 11
2011 Laguna 12
2012 Laguna 8..
2013 4-6....

PSCR had some interesting cars, but the fan attendance eroded, and there was no chance of factory involvement without change... that change was the ALMS. Sportscar racing won't die, but like it always has, the cycle has run it's course, and it requires a new rebirth in North America. It will survive as amateur hour as long as it fancies Panoz, or until someone finally pays too much for it.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

The series has a leg up on GA through the ACO link

Yeah? What "leg up" does that give the ALMS?

[JAG]

The same "leg up" that allowed the series to have a flying start in '99, a fleet of LMP's and GT's already running at Le Mans, whether the series can attract those cars is a different matter.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

The same "leg up" that allowed the series to have a flying start in '99, a fleet of LMP's and GT's already running at Le Mans, whether the series can attract those cars is a different matter.

So, in other words, they don't have a "leg up." The one time where they could realistically get a "leg up" is Petit, but the WEC seems to be doing their damnedest to keep WEC teams out of Petit. Outside of Le Mans auto-invites, and who knows if there will even be those in the future for the ALMS, what advantages are there exactly for the ALMS in regard to the ACO marriage? Even the auto-invites are cheapened by the fact that teams get auto-invites regardless of performance if they are accepted into the WEC.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AGD

So, in other words, they don't have a "leg up." The one time where they could realistically get a "leg up" is Petit, but the WEC seems to be doing their damnedest to keep WEC teams out of Petit. Outside of Le Mans auto-invites, and who knows if there will even be those in the future for the ALMS, what advantages are there exactly for the ALMS in regard to the ACO marriage? Even the auto-invites are cheapened by the fact that teams get auto-invites regardless of performance if they are accepted into the WEC.

You misunderstand my point, with the possible exception of Corvette, every car on the ALMS grid will be built with or without the ALMS, and every car that runs at Le Mans is eligable for the ALMS.

You can see with GA how difficult it is to attract the variety of brands the ALMS has, in both LMP and GT, without resorting to tube-frame cars that are essentially the same under the skin, now we see GA dipping into the GT3 pool to up the variety and desirability of their grids.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

You misunderstand my point, with the possible exception of Corvette, every car on the ALMS grid will be built with or without the ALMS, and every car that runs at Le Mans is eligable for the ALMS.

You can see with GA how difficult it is to attract the variety of brands the ALMS has, in both LMP and GT, without resorting to tube-frame cars that are essentially the same under the skin, now we see GA dipping into the GT3 pool to up the variety and desirability of their grids.

Ok, but how is the "ACO link" (at least the official one) beneficial to the ALMS? The ALMS could always pick and choose what they want to allow and what they don't. If they want to accept ACO-like cars without a formal agreement, fine as far as I can tell. I'm not sure if that's what the ALMS should do in totality if they kicked the ACO to the curb, but whatever.

[Fogelhund]

You don't need to be tied to the ACO, to use a common set of rules, modified for your own needs.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

You don't need to be tied to the ACO, to use a common set of rules, modified for your own needs.

Agreed, the deal with the ACO is purely for use of the Le Mans name. And the promos that said "born in Le Mans in 1923..." don't seem to interest people. What can you do for me now? How good is the show?

I will disagree slightly with you Fog... IMSA of the late-70s was laden with gentleman drivers and made for very exciting racing. I do however agree that the ALMS is risking a lot "staying the course" with its current brand and rules set. I am with you on the frustration over what has happened to our beloved series though, man. It was the best in the world for a bright, shining moment.

Chris