Time for a Mongrel Class???

[louonline]

This is a quote from FFs on another thread.

I thought I'd start a new thread to keep it in focus.

"Cup class is the only real hope for NC next year, and that must exclude Mongrel anythings, ....BMW, Holden, Elfin or whatever."

Reading that it occured to me that perhaps there may be a place for a "Mongrel Class", for the want of a better tittle.
Now I don't know much about all the existing classes but they all seem to have very complex rules.
What's wrong with laying down a few simple rules and let people use their own ideas to come up with a better winning package?
For the rules say something along these lines:-
1) A production at least 2 door body shell
2) Limit on tyre size
4) Limit on brake size
5) must run on normally available petrol or diesel
6) Limit on over all power-to-weight-ratio
7) No turbo?

I'm sure you more knoledgeable people out there could add another couple od rules to make it fairer without stifeling individual reativity. EG. no exotic materials to be used.
Most of all I don't want to hear the word "Parity" !

Please don't shoot me if what I'm suggesting may be totally impractical/unworkable but I'd like to see some discussion on it.
(pardon spelling)

[the man]

Originally posted by louonline
This is a quote from FFs on another thread.

I thought I'd start a new thread to keep it in focus.

"Cup class is the only real hope for NC next year, and that must exclude Mongrel anythings, ....BMW, Holden, Elfin or whatever."

Reading that it occured to me that perhaps there may be a place for a "Mongrel Class", for the want of a better tittle.
Now I don't know much about all the existing classes but they all seem to have very complex rules.
What's wrong with laying down a few simple rules and let people use their own ideas to come up with a better winning package?
For the rules say something along these lines:-
1) A production at least 2 door body shell
2) Limit on tyre size
4) Limit on brake size
5) must run on normally available petrol or diesel
6) Limit on over all power-to-weight-ratio
7) No turbo?

I'm sure you more knoledgeable people out there could add another couple od rules to make it fairer without stifeling individual reativity. EG. no exotic materials to be used.
Most of all I don't want to hear the word "Parity" !

Please don't shoot me if what I'm suggesting may be totally impractical/unworkable but I'd like to see some discussion on it.
(pardon spelling)

That is a good idea but then it comes down to who ever has the most money wins? Then you would have to set the limits to the biggest car then. Another way would say run them in production spec with all the parts the same size like the brake pads and rotors. This would be a great series if the backing was behind it and we could get good fields.

[louonline]

Money will always play a part but even manufactures who have plenty of money to spend must eventually rely on their better engineering skills to build a faster car than their competitor working within the same rules.
I don't particularly like one make racing.
Another factor would be if these cars are going to be used for sprint racing or long distance endurance racing.
Just like they build one-off concept cars for motor shows, let them build a one-off for say a 24 hour race (at Bathurst of course)

[the man]

So you are saying that let them build a long distance prototype car to race round bathurst. At that why don't we make it into a proper GT Racing championship and have one 1 hour racefor them as the feature

[louonline]

Originally posted by the man
So you are saying that let them build a long distance prototype car to race round bathurst. At that why don't we make it into a proper GT Racing championship and have one 1 hour racefor them as the feature

Yeah, we could do something like that, but let's get back to the crux of the thread; is there a place for Mongrels and if so what rules?

[ff s conscience]

err GT class NC was Mongrels since the Holden came, the Lambo went sequential, the viper, the Honda the 550 etc etc and it killed itself.

N-GT cars are too expensive to prop up regular grids of 20 or so, which is what is needed (plus there's only really a few porsches and Ferrari in Aus so far), Even the british GT has less than 20 N-GT cars, and that's the model series we could dream of......

[Chucky]

Silly idea as the overall budget to build a field of mongrels doesn't exist in this country.

NGT is as good as it gets and that's not bad!

[1200Datto27]

It also sounds a lot like an existingclass in Australia, namely Sports Sedans.

[louonline]

Originally posted by ff s conscience
err GT class NC was Mongrels since the Holden came, the Lambo went sequential, the viper, the Honda the 550 etc etc and it killed itself.

N-GT cars are too expensive to prop up regular grids of 20 or so, which is what is needed (plus there's only really a few porsches and Ferrari in Aus so far), Even the british GT has less than 20 N-GT cars, and that's the model series we could dream of......

Hi ff,
Well I guess that puts paid to my idea of “mongrels” .
OK from what I read of your other posts you seem to be very knowledgeable of the specs of all these different GT, NC, N-GT etc. classes. In your opinion what class should we in Australia be nurturing in order to be able to compete on the world stage with the ultimate aim of staging an international 24 hour at Bathurst?
Just as a matter of interest does the Monaro mongrel fit legitimately into any existing class and if so would it be competitive in that class?
How do you think the JOSS car will shape up on the track?

[ff s conscience]

Monaro is POS Mongrel. Joss would be the same. Medium volume Production sports available from showrooms around the world is what's needed....such as Porsche GT3, 360 Challenge, Lotus Elise etc...just look at Cup class of British GT series. That's Australia's only hope.

The GT3-RS and 360 N-GT could be combined (With TVR 400 and similar too), but maybe specify non professional drivers only, or a strict paritiser...such as limited tyres/fuel/air restrictor etc...

If that could happen, then maybe Aussie GT cup could happen. As far as I'm concerned, it's a dead horse any other way.

[racer69]

All it needs is clear cut regulations, not 'run-what-ya-brung and PROCAR will parity it out of contention' regulations.

Give entrants regulations they can obtain, build their car to those regulations without worrying about handicapping or parity adjustments if they happen to do a good job, and the interest and entrants will come.

[ff s conscience]

No. No car building for NC, too expensive/no return. Just buy something off the showroom and race it, sell it easily when finished with it, minimal losses....eg 360C.... Spend 350,000 in 2000. Race it for 4 years, sell it for 200,000.

Buy it in 2004 for 200,000, race it for 2 more years, sell it for approx 125,000? Make sense...and that's Ferrari, do simialr sums for Porsche and come out even more cost effective.

another example...BUILD Mustangs, spend 500,000, race 4 times competitively, sell for peanuts...LESSON LEARNED.

Allow minimal mods to production cars...wing, weight, shocks, silencers etc.

NC 2000-2002 was good.

That's my last word on the subject. Over it. Why do you all keep ignoring what was good????

[D.R.T.]

I believe have Cup Class for 2 , re evaluate the championship then, see if we have brought back numbers and regained fan interest.

Once we have solid footing, I think introducing N-GT class can be a sustainable move. The Bathurst 24 Hour would play an important part I believe in the success of N-GT regs in Australia though.

[Christopher]

Is there a GT Cup Eligible car list I could look for?

[Christopher]

Don't worry I found it on another thread. For some reason I couldn't delete my first post.

[the man]

Originally posted by D.R.T.


Once we have solid footing, I think introducing N-GT class can be a sustainable move. The Bathurst 24 Hour would play an important part I believe in the success of N-GT regs in Australia though.

That would be the logical move in the class. Hopefully we won't have a repeat of the last couple of seasons with "big bangers" ( mongrels ) aloud in.

[ff s conscience]

No. NO. NO. NO. NOOO WHY CANT YOU GUYS SEE IT???.....We crawled, we walked, we ran, we tripped over our own feet, fell flat on our faces and broke our noses and bled to death,..... let's stick to crawling, it's much more stable.

Cup/Trophy class only, with N-GT versions of trophy cars allowed only with parity adjustments and non pro drivers...ie GT3/360 Wagg/Eddy/Algadrie/Beards etc etc...do none of you guys remember the battles between Wagg and eddy with simonsen etc...we all got off on it..drivers, crews, spectators and TV...

Nobody can visibly see if cars are going 2 or 3 seconds faster per lap, it's the entertainment value that need to be sharp, not the laptimes. (Not that a 360C doing 1.36.62 at P Island , or a 1.25.3 at winton is a bad lap anyway...)

[louonline]

ff, I respect your knowledge and opinion but I have a problem grasping the parity bit.
I just can't understand why if someone builds a faster car (working within a given set of rules) than the other bloke, he then has his car crippled so the other ones can keep up.
Also can you define a "non pro" driver or at what stage does one become a "pro" driver.

[ff s conscience]

NC only hope is for gents and part time teams. No way on earth can NC support full time pro teams for long.

No car building...at all...none....zip.

Apart from the obvious "pay" angle, I think a pro driver is any recognised professional category driver with top 10 success. Any age, but it is hard to be accurate and fair.

The parity with medium volume production cars is easy to adjust. There's enough evidence to know exactly how much faster a GT3-RS is than a GT3, same with 360C/N-GT...that's why no car building. Too hard to police/benchmark.

Major example of giant cock up here....Monaro can do 1.32.00 at PI, where nearest real production car to it is a Commodore which struggles to do 1.45. 360C is only 3 seconds slower than 360 N-GT, which is an easy gap to paritise

[Crowestar]

You'd still have to have some professional drivers to mix it with the gentlemen drivers. If you want Paul Stokell drive some Lamborgini and Jim Richards driving some Porsche, they are professional drivers. But its sounds like great racing if it gets off the ground which I hope it does.

[louonline]

Ok ff, from what you say the sort of race I want to see is not sustainable as a class/series.
What I want to see is the top manufactures take up the challange and build a car (a mongrel?) to a given set of rules and battle it out for 24 hours ONCE A YEAR for the honour of being King Of The Mountain!
Allas, this is all fantasy stuff unless someone can lure/shame them into taking up the challange; but you have to admit it would be one hell of a race!!

[ff s conscience]

Crowestar...read all the posts. what I suggest is that Pro's can only drive CUP class cars. N-GT cars can only be driven by gents.

I totally agree, we need pro's like Jimmy, Fitzy, Stokell, Simonsen, Bowe etc. But make them race in a level field. they'll still win, but the gents in N-GT cars will at least have a chance, and the gents in cup cars will have a decent benchmark to aim for.

Only concession would be for B24, when pro's can drive un paritised N-GT cars in teams with whoever wants/can get them. And of course split the classes into N-GT and cup separate.

Absolutely no GT cars allowed...550, Monaro, Viper, Honda, Corvette etc..all out, gone, bye bye, shut the door on the way out.

[Crowestar]

Sorry ff was flicking through them. Yeah I can agree with that

[D.R.T.]

No, No , No.

I think introducing any sort of parity element, regardless of who the driver is, is seeking trouble.
Parity adjustments must be removed totally from all aspects of the category.

I think that Cup Class for all competitors. Build confidence and stability amongst competitors. Once this is achieved I think introducing N-GT is a logical step.

With the taxi movement heading OS, this leaves an a opportunity for Australian series to fill the void and interest of fans that have have been left behind.

This is an important time for the category, whatever the big decision is, It has to be the correct one

[ff s conscience]

DRT

if there is no parity (either apparent or real), only the people with the fastest cars will turn up.....