no desire to have a go, but....

alf · 17 Apr 2006, 22:00 (Ref:1587142)

in the last 3 years I have seen or been the victim of 5 fairly serious incidents, ie car rammed by another competitor usualy, yet Nothing is mentioned in the observers report. on one occasion i was the victim of a back marker changing direction twice on the way in to a corner. at the last minute I was forced on to the grass causing a semi spin and then i was struck by the following car. i was completly inoccent, yet the marshals report blamed me for the crash saying that I tryed to prevent the following car from passing me ( while I was spinning on the grass?????? i never knew I had the skill!) and the back marker never got a mention. I whent on to re take the lead and won the race but was given a 10 second penalty!!!!!!!!!!! so dropped to 5th

Of course we all value your commitment etc but that was just wrong ( and as I say 1 of 5 similar incidents)

a guy had his car writen off at snett the other day and nothing was done to the car who hit him. why
from the on board video it is clear he was struck from behind causing him to spin. He now has a £7000 bill and no one has to say sorry.

Standards seem to be slipping??
what qualifies someone as an observer, say over a normal marshall or is it just one does one thing and another does another.

such a shame because we rely on fair play from you guys

Pete Howarth · 17 Apr 2006, 22:14 (Ref:1587154)

With low numbers not all marshal posts have an observer.
It takes a minimum of 3 years from getting your course grade (First grade) to obtaining an observer grade, but usually takes much longer.

archaic gold · 17 Apr 2006, 22:16 (Ref:1587157)

Firstly, having been a Clerk for some 10 plus years, and an Observer for 36 years, I am very sorry that you have had to post this thread! However, I can understand, shall we say, your frustrations.
Motor Sport in general is suffering from an overall lack of 'experience', not only that fewer youngsters are coming forward to Marshal, but the available resources are being stretched to the limit.
From my very own experiences, I could write a very long reply to you on why the situations that you quote MAY have occurred. However, I have to fall back on the maxim that I do not know the full facts of the situations you quote.
Basically, a shortage of good quality experienced, trained Observers. Also, an Observer on most Circuits is not totally in control of his Sector. Quickly to qualify; Control boxes that do not command a full view of the Circuit; namely, behind debris fencing and at ground level on many Circuits. The Observer must be high up to look down on the particular section of track he is responsible, and also be able to communicate with Control without taking his eyes away from this scene. That's starters!!!

Mark Mitchell · 17 Apr 2006, 22:33 (Ref:1587167)

As an Examining Observer...........

(BTW - I'm a "Normal" Marshal, nothing special but have 14 years of experience under my belt")

Observers do not see everything, all the time!
Observer will only report FACT in an unbiased way - we cannot suggest that a car was "Rammed" or even indicate who's fault it was - that is not our duty. The Clerk and or Stewards make a descision based on the Observers report.

It sounds like you have been unfortunate in having reports go against you (that's probably how you see them?) but I'm 100% certain that there is no intention to supply incorrect details on reports from any Observer (It's just that some are better than others - like competitors!)

I'm not going to go down the "We are Volunteers" route - we all take our duties with a most professional attitude, and I accept your words that you're not "Having A Go" - I'm sure you are very frustrated that you are getting a rum deal!

I have made mistakes in my reporting but at the time they are written, I truly believe them to be correct. I have gone home & seen a race on TV where I have submitted a report and then thought "Oh ****" when the camera's show it to have happened "Another" way!! Sadly it's then too late to do anything about it!

Unfortunately in the current climate - i,e, a shortgae of Marshals, sometimes we get asked to do duties that we may not be 100% competent in - like asking a Flag marshal to also Observe (Although most flaggies make excellent Observers) so inconsistencies may occur.

Without wishing to rock the boat from my side of the fence, next time you're up before the Clerk and presented with a report that incriminates you - politely ask if the person who submitted it is a graded Observer!

It may not hold much water but then again..........!

alf · 17 Apr 2006, 22:49 (Ref:1587183)

so there is a shortage of marshals and observers is there?
that would explain a fair bit, however there always seems to be loads of you at the various marshal posts ( I always wave to say thanks after EVERY race or qualy) is there a set minimum number per post?
has it got to do with the added costs of marshaling that puts voulanteers off.
I had a thread on here a while ago calling for your fees / expences to be met by a sponsor, or contributions from the circuit owners etc.i think this would help to swell numbers. it would have to imho. if for no other reason than that you get in to races for free(ish) as the kids get older and hate me nmore I fully intend to don the orange so watch this space but for now

thanks for the replies

Mark Mitchell · 17 Apr 2006, 22:57 (Ref:1587187)

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf

so there is a shortage of marshals and observers is there?

There is!

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf

I always wave to say thanks after EVERY race or qualy

That's always appreciated

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf

has it got to do with the added costs of marshaling that puts voulanteers off.

I think that it's a society thing - there a helluva lot more things you can do on a weekend compared to 20 years ago. There's more leisure things all after your time!

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf

I had a thread on here a while ago calling for your fees / expences to be met by a sponsor, or contributions from the circuit owners etc.i think this would help to swell numbers. it would have to imho.

This could/would probably attract the wrong kind of person to Marshalling - those who are merely interested in freebies/money

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf

if for no other reason than that you get in to races for free(ish) as the kids get older and hate me nmore I fully intend to don the orange so watch this space but for now

Then you can report those innocents who encroach on "Our" grassy bits!!!

**Stephen Green** · 18 Apr 2006, 07:33 (Ref:1587373)

Alf, I have replied to your post in the other forum and I hope it adds value to what has already been said here.

When you go motor racing are there any other members of your family who might like to come along and spend a day marshalling? They would always be welcome and well looked after, it would also give you a better insight (if indeed it is needed) to what it's like from the 'other' side or the barriers.

Mark and Gerry above have explained the main points and I hope that has given you a little more comfort about what happens and why?

DaveW · 18 Apr 2006, 09:14 (Ref:1587447)

An observer only ever witnesses an incident in real time from one position so it isn't entirely surprising that different opinions will arise as to the cause. It is also worth bearing in mind that events leading up to an incident, such as a driver changing sides of the track, may not actually be visible to the observer at the point of the incident.

As an indication of how ones position affects how an incident is perceived, towards the end of 2004 we had a collision as two cars took the chequered flag at Snetterton. The startline marshals on the pitlane saw it one way, those on the opposite flag point had a different interpretation, the in-car video from one of the cars gave a third view and the footage from a following car a fourth.

Combining the four pieces of evidence allowed us to reach a conclusion that would have, almost certainly, been different if based on only one or two pieces.

As Stephen mentioned, come and spend a day on the bank. I think you'll be both impressed with the effort of all the marshals and recognise the difficulties faced by observers. And should you be unfortunate enough to be involved in another incident then any additional evidence that you can present to the clerk will be considered accordingly.

alf · 18 Apr 2006, 13:21 (Ref:1587654)

cheers for the invite i will take it up myself on a non racing weekend, my kids are too young as yet and my wife hates me !! ( too much money and time spent racing.
ah well
as was said before, no desire to have a go cheers for your replies

CombeMarshal · 18 Apr 2006, 16:35 (Ref:1587762)

I stood in on the Observers briefing at Combe on Monday (and it was very thorough!) One thing that stood out in my head was "Only Report Facts!" you can only report what you see, not you either missed or could not see!

I have to agree on the Paid Marshal's I think it would be an horendous idea, I have nothing against Free Breakfast or petrol contribution, but if it was to atract people just for the money rather than the love of the sport you never know what muppets you'd end up with!!!

Thanks for the compliments, And we will tell you all the proper racing lines as well!!!

archaic gold · 18 Apr 2006, 16:46 (Ref:1587775)

Hopefully, Alf, you are getting the message that Observers can only report facts as they see them!
Statements such as he pushed, punted etc are NOT allowed! Contact was made with the front r/h corner against the l/h rear of No ?. is allowed. etc.
We can not say: aggressive driving, red mist showing, or similiar statements are certainly not allowed! Basically, Observers have to conform to the
original 'Judges Rules in the giving of Evidence'

JimW · 18 Apr 2006, 17:23 (Ref:1587797)

Hi Alf

Sorry to hear that you don't feel that you have had a good experience with the reports from marshals. I have been observing for many years and the longer I do it, the more convinced I become of what poor "observers" of scenes almost all people (of course including me) are. No offence to my colleagues but talk to almost any police man or woman and they will tell you stories of how the accounts of any witnesses almost never tell the same story. One went so far as to say that if two accounts were the same he suspected collusion.

When considering submitting a report containing contentious items, I rarely do so unless the view can be corroborated by someone else on the post. (If my view is sought by Race Control, as opposed to being offered by me, I will say what I saw.)

OK we are there to record what is happening and get experience, training and instruction but it is still a pretty fallible process.

Some of my colleagues are not really encouraged to submit reports because of the persistent lack of any response (good or bad) from Race Control. (Cue Clerks coming forward to deny this.

) Not always true but certainly true in some cases.

Also we have other things to do. Even assuming that we have a decent minimum turnout of marshals (two flags per point, one course/incident per 100 meters of trackside* (i.e. one each side of a 100 meter stretch) would be my rule of thumb) the observer is:

Watching out for his safety
Watching out for the team's safety
Considering whether anyone needs any guidance/instructions
Listening/talking on the phone/radio
Writing up the last incident
Watching the cars for conduct/flag violations
Looking both ways (over about 300+ degrees at the Mallory hairpin

)
Trying to keep dry!

Also some incidents are just not going to be seen in sufficient detail to be "worth" reporting. "Something happened in the middle of the pack of 10 cars and car 34 popped out upside down" may be true but is not helpful from your point of view.

So I hope you can see why some incidents are not going to be "observed" in sufficient detail/clarity to be reported in a way which will establish blame (or even causation).

Having said all that, I regret that you have five occasions when you felt that there was inadequate reporting.

Tip for next time. Ask the Clerk what reports were received and if none, ask them to enquire specifically. You don't have to be in a protest situation to do this but be prepared to have differing or nil reports - it's a fact of life.

Regards

Jim

* the 1/100 is just a guide for illustration, different posts have different needs. Few meetings/circuits reach this number. 86 for the Full Oulton and 80 for Donington. That is graded people not including trainees and is a minimum figure not a comfortable one. Perhaps this is a separate thread!

b1ackcr0w · 18 Apr 2006, 19:19 (Ref:1587871)

Alf,

The guys who've already responded, are not only more experienced than myself, but have also gone into great detail, all of which I would agree wholeheartedly with.

There are only two small things I think I can add.

1. There more time I spend on the bank, the more I realise that rarely if ever is an incident involving two cars a cut and dried case. Almost infallibly, when metal meets metal, the are as many valid or at least believeable stories as drivers. Diving the truth or any justice from them takes the Wisdom of Soloman.

2. I can't accept the contention that standards are slipping. In fact I would offer the argument that the opposite is the case and standards are rising. Whether they are rising at the same rate as costs for the competitor and by extension the rate that competitors expectations are rising, is another matter.

archaic gold · 18 Apr 2006, 21:24 (Ref:1588002)

As Black crow states, and I would agree, standards are not slipping, just that there are insufficient skilled Marshals coming through the system to replace those that have gone ahead - many to become Clerks! I also agree that you can push for information from Race Control without going to the lengths of paying a Protest Fee.

alf · 18 Apr 2006, 23:00 (Ref:1588112)

[QUOTE=JimW]Hi Alf

. No offence to my colleagues but talk to almost any police man or woman and they will tell you stories of how the accounts of any witnesses almost never tell the same story. One went so far as to say that if two accounts were the same he suspected collusion.

i think you are right, but it kind of begs the questions:
what is the point then in having an observers report as he is likely to be falible, and therfore the report is invariably likly to be contradicted by the party shown to be most culpable, (from that observers point of view,) and if as has been writen here earlier 2 observers can naturaly have differing perspectives of the same incident, then it is more than possible that the now very guilty but protesting strongly driver may indeed be infact the inocent party after all.

As you say with the benefit of replays all is much easier, but to make a call that can turn out to be wrong ( as happened to me ) can have a devestating effect on a driver. Better perhaps to just have marshals marshaling, and leave the unpleasant stuff to the coc's, who without cold hard evidence which is incontestable, has too leave 50 / 50 decisions as unproven. ok the guilty party gets off scott free, but better that than for the inocent party to get his car mullered and then be blamed for causing the incident if in fact he has not.

JimW · 18 Apr 2006, 23:11 (Ref:1588127)

Quote:

Originally Posted by alf. . . I think you are right, but it kind of begs the questions:
[SIZE=2

what is the point then in having an observers report as he is likely to be falible, and therfore the report is invariably likly to be contradicted by the party shown to be most culpable, (from that observers point of view,) and if as has been writen here earlier 2 observers can naturaly have differing perspectives of the same incident, then it is more than possible that the now very guilty but protesting strongly driver may indeed be infact the inocent party after all.. . ..

Fallible certainly but not always wrong. I was really just pointing out why claims to have seen something need to be tested for accuracy, likelihood and corroboration. It is why drivers always have the chance to challenge reports and present their own view of what happened. A good clerk will weigh the evidence which is presented from any legitimate source before coming to a decision on the information as presented.[/SIZE]

Regards

Jim

archaic gold · 19 Apr 2006, 08:35 (Ref:1588409)

Alf, where do we start? The Race Observer is the first line of reporting or else nobody knows in Race Control there has been an incident. Cars in many champioships, especially single-seaters, do not carry video cameras. Some Circuits do not have blanket coverage of CCTV, if they are all working, and they have to be pointing in the right direction. A Clerk just has to read the Observers Report, speak to each driver, alone; and any other witnesses and hopefully, make a fair and rational decision. Believe you me, the higher the status of the Championship; the harder that gets!!

PipSqueak111 · 24 Apr 2006, 12:03 (Ref:1593697)

Are there still driving-standards observers at race meetings? In 4 years on the bank I can only recall seeing these twice. Surely these are the people that should be giving some more feed back on the driving tactics and habits of various drivers?

archaic gold · 24 Apr 2006, 12:51 (Ref:1593737)

[QUOTE=PipSqueak111]Are there still driving-standards observers at race meetings?

To the best of my knowledge, there is still a facility for DSO's. However, there were few Marshals graded as such, and fewer ex-Competitors. Many experienced Observers also felt that it has always been the perogative of a Post Observer to report Competitors whom, shall we say, are not conducting theirselves as they should towards other Competitors.
I, personally, as many Clerks will know, have put in such reports from a Post, but headed "Report on Driving Standards". This gets around the Driver's Final Instructions which should list any DSO's at that meeting. All Competitors know there WILL be Post Observers!!

leonidas · 24 Apr 2006, 13:31 (Ref:1593767)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete Howarth

It takes a minimum of 3 years from getting your course grade (First grade) to obtaining an observer grade, but usually takes much longer.

Isn't this the major problem? A young driver could go from doing his ARDS test to being in the BTCC in that time. Three years is as long as it takes to do a PhD!!

Surely a few video-based intensive courses and 'probationary' practical experience is all that's really needed for a role like this. If you've watched racing all your life you generally have a good idea of what is acceptable and what isn't. Sadly, very few people have the patience to work 'up through the grades' these days.

Dave Brand · 24 Apr 2006, 14:52 (Ref:1593805)

Quote:

Originally Posted by leonidas

Surely a few video-based intensive courses and 'probationary' practical experience is all that's really needed for a role like this. If you've watched racing all your life you generally have a good idea of what is acceptable and what isn't.

My answer to that would be a most emphatic NO! There's a big difference between knowing what's acceptable & being able to spot it in the heat of the moment - that takes years of experience. I've been watching racing for more years than I care to remember & marshalling for five; ask me just what happened in an incident I've dealt with & very often I can't tell you. Observers also have to make important judgements on whether, for example, to ask for a race stop or to continue while incident marshals are dealing with an incident; that takes a lot of experience.

I don't want to work with clever observers - I want to work with wise observers; wisdom doesn't come on videos.

**Stephen Green** · 24 Apr 2006, 15:07 (Ref:1593812)

Quote:

Originally Posted by leonidas

Isn't this the major problem? A young driver could go from doing his ARDS test to being in the BTCC in that time. Three years is as long as it takes to do a PhD!!

Surely a few video-based intensive courses and 'probationary' practical experience is all that's really needed for a role like this. If you've watched racing all your life you generally have a good idea of what is acceptable and what isn't. Sadly, very few people have the patience to work 'up through the grades' these days.

The Observer is the 'post chief' and the other members of the team are relying on his experience and guidance at all times. It is not as easy as you might think to report accurately what happened in every case.

Take for example the opening lap of a race with say 30 cars on the grid. At thye first bend there is contact betwenn the leading three cars which the Observer then phones/radios into Race Control. While he is doing that lets assume there are two further incidents further down the field, each needing a seperate report. The chances are that the second and third incidents have taken place while the Observer is reporting the first one to Race Control. Observers huts are often without windows and often leave the Observer standing with his back to the traffic. I can assure you it is not nearly as easy as you think and you would be welcome to spend a day with me to see for yourself.

leonidas · 24 Apr 2006, 15:21 (Ref:1593822)

I'm not suggesting that new recruits should necessarily get all the authority of current observers immediately - simply that proper professional training in observation and reporting (as done by the police) helps people learn from their experience and should reduce the length of the apprenticeship needed.

At the moment you can go out onto the track in a lethal weapon with just a couple of hours training. Yet to observe and report you have to do more than three years service? I just think the balance is bit odd...

**Stephen Green** · 24 Apr 2006, 15:26 (Ref:1593826)

The time frame is there to make sure that those people who reach the grade or Observer (which not everyone wishes to do), has a good level of experience in all aspects of marshalling. I think if we were to shortn it by much there would be ensuing problems. I should mention that the whole grading scheme is currently under review and could change within the next year or two as a result.

archaic gold · 24 Apr 2006, 15:45 (Ref:1593838)

Leonidas. I can only concur with Stephen! I have been an Observer since about 1971, and although having spent some years as a Clerk, still, as do many Clerks, go on the bank as an Observer. (We therefore see both sides). Yes, what is required is more pressure on Circuit owners to make the Observer's 'huts' more like Raileway Signal boxes! Facing the track, up high, with plenty of windows to see through, then, as Steve say, reporting the first contact on the opening lap ensures you do not miss the following 'contacts' and the overtaking during the Yello flag phase.