At what point does the FIA have to consider Bridgestone as only supplying one team?

[Splatz the Cow]

At what point does the FIA have to consider Bridgestone as only supplying one team?


I for one, am really concerned about the manner in which Ferrari are approaching Formula 1. The policy of fielding a spear-head team of one driver, with a second driver in there as back 'just in case' may not be so new or significant. Coupled with Bridgestones, policy to focus on one team, Ferrari, we have what appears to be a unique situation; a driver with his own tyre manufacturer.

While this may at first be a preposturous notion, I argue that were Bridgestone going to direct their attention to any one team, it would be the team with the best prospect of getting them the most victories and ultimately, the World Drivers Championshiop (WDC). The Bridgestone shod team with the best record and future propects is Ferrari.

Current Ferrari policy appears to focus on the driver they consider to be their best prospect for victories and of course the WDC. This gives Michael Schumacher a significant advantage over his teamate. Testing changes that favour Rubens, but are detrimental to Michael's performance, will be dropped in favour of developing one towards Michael's tastes. When Bridgestone gather the feedback from Ferrari it will be about Michael's car and chassis developments.

Inadvertantly, or perhaps not so, Bridgestone develop their tyrs around one car and one man only. While this may be a spectacularly successful relationship for the two Giants of motorsport this season, it spells doom for the idea of competition from one fans view point.

If a were a thinking Ferrari fan, I would be having the time of my life with each victory, but wondering afterwards if really it was meant to be this way - how really can he lose?

And just occassionally, I would think I'd like to see his teamate get a victory, or at least be close when the flag falls.


It's a Red Year for Ferrari and their fans no doubt, it may be a darker one for F1. Where to, now, for 2003 - will we see Juan Pablo Montoya on Goodyear, Ralf Schumacher on Dunlop, David Coulthard on Pirelli, and Kimi Raikkonen on Hoosier?

I doubt it?

But how does the FIA mandate that Michelin and Bridgestone spend time with their partners equally? Well they don't, and that's the problem.


Splatz.

[Lee Janotta]

I wouldn't be suprised it Moseley came up with the idea.

[Jukebox]

So what if Ferrari has & done all that....?

Anyway, i'm sure that Michelin concentrates more on Williams and McLaren and tyre companies won't just simply enter F1 as tyre suppliers just like that. There time and money involved for R&D, it's not as simple as that.

[slicktoast]

Is Big Red really taking the "Unfair Advantage" to the nth degree?

[Liz]

At one point will the FIA be apprised of the fact that THERE IS more than one team?

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Jukebox
So what if Ferrari has & done all that....?

Anyway, i'm sure that Michelin concentrates more on Williams and McLaren

it does.............BUT, as it concentrates on more than 1 team it compromises tyre decisions!

tgf/ferrari and bridgestone took a dominant win at spain....but, he/they had 2 tyre constructions developed totally around his liking and his ferrari, he was never going to lose!

both williams and mclaren wanted a different tyre construction at spain, which they got, but that construction was the only choice they each had, they was no saying to michelin, we don't like this 1 can we try the other as it had been designed for the other team!

[Jukebox]

If i were Bridgestone and wanted sure exposure and publicity as well winning streaks, i'd do the same, the fact that they have a workshop over at maranello in Ferrari's compound shows their determination to be number 1 in the competition over their rival.

If Michelin wants to be number 1 then they should do the same.

Sauber stayed because of the Ferrari package, while Jordan & BAR because of the japanase engines....to me Bridgestone is being fair as Sauber's specs would not differ much from Ferrari while BAR & Jordan must be getting fair treatments as well because of the japanese engines.

[calais]

i'd be a bit concerned if one of my important contracted suppliers has set up a virtual labratory at my main rival's factory.
i'd also be looking into the contractual fine print to see if there is anything about equal tyre testing opportunities.

another unfair advantage for the SCUDeria

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Jukebox
to me Bridgestone is being fair as Sauber's specs would not differ much from Ferrari

as the sauber is designed around last years ferrari engine i think it would differ considerably, that is also why we saw the debate going on at brazil about tgf's tyre allocation with regard to him using 2 different cars!

[ParkLife]

Originally posted by Jukebox
...to me Bridgestone is being fair as Sauber's specs would not differ much from Ferrari while BAR & Jordan must be getting fair treatments as well because of the japanese engines.

Oh yes, it all makes perfect sense now. Why didn't I see it like that before?

Get a clue.

[Glen]

The argument about the tyres suiting Michael over Rubens would make more sense if it were demonstrably true - which it very much isn't. Rubens has been getting some very nice qualifying times, and at Barcelona Michael even decided to switch to settings which were more like his team-mate's. The eventual quarter second (or whatever, something like that) gap was simply a true reflection of the differential in speed between the two drivers, in my opinion.

All of the other stuff (same argument, but directed at Ferrari) IS very much worthy of discussion - and is a problem that F1 MUST sort out soon. At a minimum, the other teams should have all compounds and constructions available to them at the same time as Ferrari. The trouble is that they would be much more able to exert influence over Bridgestone if they were doing better, but they can't do better without more influence - Catch 22! The only Bridgestone team that might be able to stir things up are Sauber - and they aren't likely to rock the boat for obvious reasons.

[Damon]

As I see it bridgestone concentrates soley on developing tyres for Ferrari. In a way it's in their interest as Ferrari do provide their only shot at the title. The trouble is that Ferrari is based soley around Michael Schumacher so in a sense Schu has his very own tyre company developing tyres to his exact needs!

[Jukebox]

U do have a point there mr v and i can't seem to find any excuse to further the arguement....TGF is the F1 icon of the 21st century anyway and F1 today evolves around him

[Jukebox]

Originally posted by ParkLife


Oh yes, it all makes perfect sense now. Why didn't I see it like that before?

Get a clue.

What????....Toyota are using Michelin

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Jukebox
U do have a point there mr v and i can't seem to find any excuse to further the arguement....TGF is the F1 icon of the 21st century anyway and F1 today evolves around him

your right juke, F1 does revolve around tgf, but as i said in Glens "his majesty" thread :-

Originally posted by mr v


i would never insist that he was no good, he is good, very good, but i do think that his talent is flattered by his machinery also!

[Valve Bounce]

Originally posted by Damon
As I see it bridgestone concentrates soley on developing tyres for Ferrari. In a way it's in their interest as Ferrari do provide their only shot at the title. The trouble is that Ferrari is based soley around Michael Schumacher so in a sense Schu has his very own tyre company developing tyres to his exact needs!

Let's do a reality check, guys. With McLaren switching to Michelins, and Williams and Renault using Michelins, who else could we possibly see Bridgestone developing their car around? They could spend aeons on behalf of BAR, and still come up with zero. When you are onto a good thing, stick with it, and MSch has won the past 2 WDC's.



Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

Wouldn't the tire situation be similar to engines, ie One team has a works contract, one has a customer contract etc.

??

[RussianFriend]

Originally posted by Damon
As I see it bridgestone concentrates soley on developing tyres for Ferrari. In a way it's in their interest as Ferrari do provide their only shot at the title. The trouble is that Ferrari is based soley around Michael Schumacher so in a sense Schu has his very own tyre company developing tyres to his exact needs!

It was the same in 1997 with Goodyear. Michael argued with them demanding competetive tyres. And it had worked! TGF pays enough attention to supplier to achieve result he needs. No other drivers having such a right.

Who can do the same with Michlin? Montoya, Kimi, Button are too young. DC has no rights in his own team. Ralf is too nice to argue to somebody.

[Bibendum]

I share Splatz's concern about this. It's important to recognize that:

* First, yes, the commercial logic impels a supplier of tyres or anything else to focus on the most likely winner, since their object in being in the sport is to derive good publicity, which comes chiefly from winning or being seen to be successful.

* But, second, the situation with Ferrari and Bridgestone appears to have taken this beyond the normal synergy and into a form of symbiosis -- Ferrari have people at Bridgestone, and Bridgestone have unprecendented access to Ferrari and, specifically, to car data. (And, not incidentally, I don't doubt Splatz is right that MS's interests are paramount in this exchange.) I was going to say that Bridgestone have regained some of the power of a monopsony (sole supplier), but that's not quite right; the better analogy is to a cartel in which the mutual benefit of the powerful players is to ensure the disadvantage of others.

* Moreover, third (I'll stop when I run out of fingers), this sort of concentration of effort leads to an imbalance because it amplifies the penalty paid by the poorer teams and the benefit enjoyed by the richer.

* So then, fourth, these developments -- which are not historically inevitable -- pose a threat to competitiveness in the sport. In the end, that lack of competitiveness will penalize the very interests that have furthered this concentration. Especially in the US, we tend to think in terms of some abstract we call "perfect competition," but one has to acknowledge that all kinds of constraints exist to any type of competitive activity, and that in many cases steps have been taken to regulate competition in the name of competition itself -- laws against cartels come to mind. Of course, some steps work, some don't, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to have a free-for all in which complete concentration is possible.

I think the problem is real enough, and should be on the agenda of the FIA; it's not easy to attempt to ensure more equity without undermining the technological interest and value of the sport -- we've seen plenty of debate on that concerning the one-engine rule and related developments. But that doesn't mean it's not worth pursuing.

[Splatz the Cow]

Carrying on from what you've said Bibendum, I see Sauber stealing championship points from McLaren as being the real bait for Bridgestone. As they taste Michelin/McLaren blood in the water - like a shark - it may propel them into action, devoting more attention to Sauber. This would be entirely healty for the sport, and provides a natural resolution.

My other thought when reading the posts (thanks guys ) was that Bridgestone's super-development process with Ferrari may have been strangely beneficial to the Sauber, due to the links it has with the 2001 Ferrari, and some of the data may have ended up there.... Jukebox may not have been so far off on that point.

It's a curious idea, but it would help explain Sauber's terrific performances in 2002.

[Tristan]

It is a concern for the other teams, but not the FIA. Ferrari have worked into this position in which they can leverage their supplier into doing as they please. Not by fluke, by investment and success.

Valve has the rest of my views covered.

It's up to the teams to work their way out of this, no go begging to the FIA for help. It's all part of the SPORT.

[neilap]

If all the teams were fighting equally and all had the chance to win the World Championship I still do not think Bridgestone would treat them all equally. They dont care about Formula one. They care about winning. That is it. They have broken no laws but they are definately hurting the sport. Right now as it stands I am sure Yoong could finish in the top 6 with a Ferrari. I am sticking by my predictions. Toyota will buy themselves into a deal like this. There will be even clearer cut lines as far as performance. Toyota vs Ferrari and then the rest. If Bridgestones win the WC they really have not achieved what the 2nd place Michelin will have. They are supposed to win, what is the big deal? Quite honestly I dont even care about what Ferrari/Michael does at the front of the grid. That has become a bore. Bridgestone will advertise their victories but only those of us who know the truth will know how the victories came about.

Some say the other teams need to raise their game. How can they when their tires are not best suited for them?

[Tristan]

It's a vicious circle I agree. But it is nothing to do with "the FIA", "Bernie" or whoever. If the Macs had stayed on Bridgies we wouldn't be having this topic. And perhaps they wouldn't be having the season they're having (or at least not QUITE as poor by their standards).Perhaps, perhaps....

[Valve Bounce]

OK, apart from the logical aspect, let's now look at the problem from a technical aspect. MSch has a style of driving which was rather heavy on tyres. A couple of years ago, the McLaren boys would let MSch go ahead for awhile and then chase him down when his tyres started to wear badly. It was evident that the MSch + Ferrari combination had different requirements to Mika + McLaren. While there was a chance that McLaren could beat Ferrari, Bridgestone had to compromise with a compound that suited both chassis. Towards the middle of last year, I was under the impression that the tyres were being tailor made to suit MSch + Ferrari rather than both marques, and I suppose that is why Mclaren switched to Michelins this year.
Now, Bridgestone can tailor make their tyres to suit MSch knowing that is the best way to win the WDC again.
So let's look at this from a purely commercial aspect: if your were the CEO of Bridgestone, wouldn't you do the same thing?

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

[Lee Janotta]

Indeed Valve. And that's where the sanction body is supposed to step in. It's their role to balance the interests of manufacturers, teams, drivers, promoters, networks, sponsors, and fans, and create an environment in which all can thrive. _Not_ to manipulate factors to the advantage of one driver in the interests of promotion and merchandising.