ALMS 2012 Discussion

[WolfsburgRS]

...that's not good.....

[FstrthnU]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...t3-in-america/
Dagys of course has an editorial on the possibility of GT3 in America. Maybe GMG Racing had some inside knowledge of what the IMSA is going to do, since they bought the fulls-spec Audi R8 LMS.

[Deleted]

I sincerely hope ALMS doesn't open this trap door... even that ever-so-exciting Porsche cup class is better choice than GT3

[gregtummer]

I don't really know that much about GT3 so can someone clue me in as to the pros and cons of ALMS having GT3?

Would they integrate into the GTC class, but open that class up to manufacturers?

[R4z3rw33n]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I don't really know that much about GT3 so can someone clue me in as to the pros and cons of ALMS having GT3?

Pretty much:
- Performance balancing.
- No explicitly defined technical regulations/reference set (which results in the above being abused beyond belief - seems to occur in GTE, regardless; albeit to a lesser extent).

There's also the risk of upsetting any currently participating marques disinterested in adopting GT3 regs (e.g. Corvette).
At some point, a decision needs to be made, regardless. I'd imagine what's being debated currently, is whether standing on a few toes in the process (of adoption) is a reasonable compromise.

Originally Posted by gregtummer

Would they integrate into the GTC class, but open that class up to manufacturers?

The issue I see is that any manufacturer competing would demand to be competitive with current GTE machines. It's pretty likely Audi/BMW aren't lobbying to compete with one another in a separate category within the ALMS, below current GTE performance.

[gregtummer]

I don't know the full details of GT3 and stuff, but it seems like the GT3 cars WANT to run ALMS, but are going to Grand Am for now.

With ALMS being a direct competitor to Grand Am, wouldn't it be worth it to steal all those cars away from Grand Am and not have the others run there in the first place?

[Rodger Davies]

at the moment, they're doing neither, that's sort of the point. They don't run in Grand-Am either without being scaled waaay back and, ironically, costing more to the manufacturer who has to make further changes to their GT3 machinery.

There's a huge market out there in the rest of the world for GT3 cars, which makes it very appealing for a lot of manufacturers as the economies of scale work out well and provide them with a tidy profit too.

North America is the one remaining continent where you cannot run a GT3 car and the initiative is likely to be taken by whichever of the top two sportscar series begins to phase it in first. It would be easier for Grand-Am to do, but their existing teams seem reluctant to make the step up it would demand of them, but if ALMS does decide to phase them in there needs to be a plan for a several year phase out of GTE regs and it must be done by the ACO too.

The main issue with that case, obviously, is the teams like Corvette and now Dodge build cars exclusively for GTE/Le Mans and may be unhappy with the change, especially the latter, but once they adopt their cars to the GT3 regs the potential market for them in Europe and the rest of the world is almost endless at the moment. As long as that long-term plan is in place though, it would allow those US manufacturers to plan; it would be easy enough for Corvette to develop the C7 to GT3 regs in 2014 or for Cadillac to upgrade the almost GT3-ready CTS from World Challenge.

I used to be of the belief that BoP made GT3 an inferior ruleset, and I still believe that I was correct at the time, but the cons of it are now just as prevailant in IMSA GTE anyway, with race by race adjustments already being par for the course. I accept that GTE will lose the war and I'm happy in the knowledge that a unified set of GT regulations is now closer than ever, allowing the same cars to run in Spa 24, the Bathurst 12 Hours, Nurburgring 24 Hours, Silverstone 1000km, Sebring 12 Hours and, of course, Le Mans.

[gregtummer]

So if ALMS and WEC go to GT3, will the GT3 cars run to GTC speeds or will they run at GTE speeds? And if GT3 cars and GTE cars get integrated, will they speed up GT3 or slow down GTE?

A big field of cars running at GTC speeds might be too slow for LMP1s to have any flow of a race.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

So if ALMS and WEC go to GT3, will the GT3 cars run to GTC speeds or will they run at GTE speeds? And if GT3 cars and GTE cars get integrated, will they speed up GT3 or slow down GTE?

A big field of cars running at GTC speeds might be too slow for LMP1s to have any flow of a race.

GT3 speeds are already close to GTE speeds. Change the tires and you might have an equal lap time at some tracks.

[The Badger]

Maybe its time now for the ALMS to go their own way , and become less involved with the ACO rules .

They are always changing the rules to suit their own effort , which is fine by me .

Leveling out P1 with P2 , and reversing it again . Running P1 chassis with mods that exclude it from gaining an invite to the LM24 , introducing Cup cars , and LMPC into the championship and now the possibility of GT3 .

[R4z3rw33n]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Maybe its time now for the ALMS to go their own way , and become less involved with the ACO rules .

They are always changing the rules to suit their own effort , which is fine by me .

Leveling out P1 with P2 , and reversing it again . Running P1 chassis with mods that exclude it from gaining an invite to the LM24 , introducing Cup cars , and LMPC into the championship and now the possibility of GT3 .

PLM and Sebring were (or, in Sebring's case are) the only logical reasons to maintain such close technical relations with the ACO, anyway.
Those ties are far less prevalent now and, potentially more so in the not so distant future (should Sebring be removed from the WEC calendar).

Any newly introduced continuity between the LMS/ALMS seems like a positive outcome for both series.

[The Badger]

Continuity being the word here , then yes , I agree .

[ubrben]

I think GT3 could probably work to be honest. I'm no an SRO fan, but I have to accept that it's working.

The key ALMS manufacturers; BMW, Porsche, Ferrari and Corvette have GT3 cars and you could add Audi, Mercedes, Aston and Lamborghini.

The manufacturers were asked the question last year and said no, but the commercial reality has definitely changed.

I don't like the start of season BoP, but the DMSB does a reasonable job of balancing GT3 cars as their SP9 class at the Nurburgring so I'm sure the ACO/IMSA can do something.

Ben

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Maybe its time now for the ALMS to go their own way , and become less involved with the ACO rules .

They are always changing the rules to suit their own effort , which is fine by me .

Leveling out P1 with P2 , and reversing it again . Running P1 chassis with mods that exclude it from gaining an invite to the LM24 , introducing Cup cars , and LMPC into the championship and now the possibility of GT3 .

No P1 chassis has had modifications that prevented it from gaining an auto invite to Le Mans. The only differences so far have been in restrictor size, E85, wing span, fins and BHH and going even earlier than that, the ALMS has allowed older chassis that would have been obsolete at Le Mans compete in the ALMS because it was the practical, reasonable thing to do to keep entries on the grid.

While I'd love to root on an SLS AMG GT3 effort in the ALMS, they'd need to find a good way to balance the cars and assure that GT3's escalating costs don't add to the already massive pressures that exist on the ALMS's highly political, very expensive and professional GT class. Forgetting GT3 they need to look at developing an underclass that can replace GTE when it goes tits up in a few years. My fear is GT3 will get in the way of creating a new and viable (sub-)GT class and accelerate the demise of GTE. Unless the SRO gets the reins on GT3 soon.

For sports car racing's sake the ALMS needs to take a look at a dusty old copy of the 1989 IMSA GTP rule book and take cues from that for fixing their P1 and maintaining a healthy GT class. If it means getting further away from ACO weights and measures, that's fine so long as the chassis stay In close enough kinship that the Lizards, Corvettes and Dysons can go to Le Mans every June.

Chris

[Accident]

I really don't think GT3 is the answer if you want factory participation. The waiver system we have now is already a source of controversy, so having no rules for the cars would just cause more.

GT3 works as a primarily customer based series, but when you get factories putting their money behind them, then costs would spiral out of control just the same, and perhaps more when there are no regulations, and factories will leave when the ROI isn't worth what they are spending to stay competitive.

I don't think the GTE formula is the problem, I think it's just the position of the GTE classes. In the ALMS GT class we have first tier teams, first tier drivers, and first tier cars that are being putting in the fourth tier behind spec prototypes and ride-selling teams with cost capped cars.

I think any GT class that is put in behind what we currently have will end up pretty much the same way.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

No P1 chassis has had modifications that prevented it from gaining an auto invite to Le Mans.

Dyson ran with a rear wing , that disqualified them from gaining a Le Mans auto invite . Check it out , about 3 or 4 years ago .

[Maelochs]

Sorry LeBanza, but I must demur.

So far as I know, No GTE team has complained about where it is on the grid—the only complaints I have heard have been about where the whole series is on TV.

The Issue (not Problem) with GTE/GT3 is diversity. GTE cars are purpose-built race chassis with race-specific suspension, massive variation from production models in terms of engine, gearbox, and placement of both those units. GTE cars have to be designed and built from the start as race cars.

GT3s can be built from street chassis right off the production lines.

For this reason, manufacturers who cannot see the sense of building a few very expensive GTE chassis with likely no customer base to defray expenses, are unwilling to enter GTE. Those same manufacturers can enter GT3 much more cheaply, and are much more likely to find customers for those cars (Look at GTE vs. GT3 car count—ACO-based series are weak on GTEs, and there are GT3 series everywhere. There are twice as many GT3 Just in Blancpain as in WEC, ALMS, and ELMS (Pro and AM) combined.)

GT3 is more popular with the manufacturers right now. It is producing great racing. It offers more variety.

If GTE could attract Lamborghini, Audi, Mercedes, that would be fantastic. But right now in ALMS …. Ferrari, Porsche, Corvette, and for now BMW, are the only real solid entries.

The only reason to move to GT3 is to get more manufacturers involved—not in running teams, but in building cars.

[Articus]

Id be fine with seeing gt3 in alms. The problem is they would be too slow. To be Bop'ed behind the GTE's....They look like GTE cars.

[MitchZ06]

Too slow? Not sure about that...

[Articus]

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Too slow? Not sure about that...

I mean that the ALMS would BOP them behind the GTe cars and then they would be too slow. Right now the GT3 cars basically run GTE pace with more straightaway speed.

[broadrun96]

ELMS adds GT3s with some as yet undetermined balancing

Just to get an idea of race pace on US tracks, how close are the GTC Porsches to the GT3 series models? We will get a decent idea of how the GTE and GT3 cars match up in July, if the ELMS is still around, at Donnington. Think we will see any ALMS management or team staff over there in the off-week between Lime Rock and Mosport? Hope Speed sends Dagys over to follow up his article from Saturday

[Carbone]

Originally Posted by Articus

Id be fine with seeing gt3 in alms. The problem is they would be too slow...

GT3 too slow...

Spa Francorchamps 2011 :

Ferrari F458 GTE (AF Corse / Jaime Melo) : 2’20’’743
Ferrari F458 GT3 (Vita4One) : 2’19’’264

Porsche 997 GT3 RSR GTE (Marc Lieb) : 2’21’’291
Porsche 997 GT3R (GT3) : 2’19’788

Silverstone 2011 :

BMW M3 GTE (BMW Motorsport / Augusto Farfus) : 2’01’’768
BMW Alpina B6 GT3 (Alpina Motorsport) : 2’00’’094
BMW Z4 GT3 (Marc VDS) : 2’01’’214

Ferrari F458 GTE (AF Corse / Toni Vilander) : 2’02’’744
Ferrari F458 GT3 (AF Corse) : 2’01’’296

Etc, Etc, Etc,...

[Creep89]

But they wouldn't run in that configuration. They would be restricted to ensure that they are slower than GTE.

[Nick6]

GT3's in ALMS would effectively kill GT(e/2).

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Dyson ran with a rear wing , that disqualified them from gaining a Le Mans auto invite . Check it out , about 3 or 4 years ago .

I looked it up and according to what I believe to be the official ACO list that is true. However, Lowes-Fernandez received their auto invite and yet they ran the 2008-spec 2000mm rear wing all season.

Originally Posted by Creep89

But they wouldn't run in that configuration. They would be restricted to ensure that they are slower than GTE.

they would likely be balanced to run in the GT class. Or at least it would be a weird way to go for a sub-GT class, considering speed and costs.

The ALMS needs to bring in a class that will live beyond the lifespan of the current GT class by a good number of years, not one or two, if that.

Chris