ALMS 2012 Discussion

[pablocomics]

Originally Posted by Carbone

GT3 too slow...

Spa Francorchamps 2011 :

Ferrari F458 GTE (AF Corse / Jaime Melo) : 2’20’’743
Ferrari F458 GT3 (Vita4One) : 2’19’’264

Porsche 997 GT3 RSR GTE (Marc Lieb) : 2’21’’291
Porsche 997 GT3R (GT3) : 2’19’788

Silverstone 2011 :

BMW M3 GTE (BMW Motorsport / Augusto Farfus) : 2’01’’768
BMW Alpina B6 GT3 (Alpina Motorsport) : 2’00’’094
BMW Z4 GT3 (Marc VDS) : 2’01’’214

Ferrari F458 GTE (AF Corse / Toni Vilander) : 2’02’’744
Ferrari F458 GT3 (AF Corse) : 2’01’’296

Etc, Etc, Etc,...

Remove the massive restrictors to the GTE and the GT3 will be turtles compared with GTE (and maybe the LMP2). The GTE engines are much, much, much more sofisticated than GT3

The BOP of the OpenGT has bigger diameter restrictors on GT2 (bigger than ACO rules) and GT3 has nothing to do against them

[Captain Spyro]

Could this be the end of GT racing in general as we know it? It starts in ELMS, and could find its way elsewhere. Corvette is opposing the switch to GT3, reportedly, and could more follow?

I'm not liking the look of the future here.

[Carbone]

Originally Posted by pablocomics

Remove the massive restrictors to the GTE and the GT3 will be turtles compared with GTE (and maybe the LMP2). The GTE engines are much, much, much more sofisticated than GT3

The BOP of the OpenGT has bigger diameter restrictors on GT2 (bigger than ACO rules) and GT3 has nothing to do against them

The Aston Martin Vantage GT3 (V12 6.0L), the Mercedes SLS GT3 (V8 6.3L), the McLaren MP4-12C GT3 (V8 3.8L Biturbo), etc. develops more 600 HP with the restrictors of homologation (before the FIA BOP). The GTE with their small engine 6 cylinder 4.0L or V8 4.5L would not hold one hour of race with 600 HP (without restrictors).

In Open GT, the GT3 are heavier of 10 to 40 kg and the GTE are lighter (F458 -40 kg) and they have restrictors bigger.

Open GT (GT2 / GTE) weight : 1'100 kg to 1'220 kg.

Open GT (GT3) weight : 1'200 kg to 1'365 kg.

Take a Aston Martin Vantage V12 GT3 vs a Aston Martin Vantage V8 GTE with the same weight (1'200 kg) and we shall discuss who will be the slowest…

In fact, the question was to know if the GTE and the GT3 can run in the same category in ELMS and in ALMS and the answer is yes.

[Maelochs]

As I read it ELMS has decided to slow the GT3s down to GTC pace. The ELMS press release made that clear.

ELMS doesn’t want to get into the nightmare of mollifying outraged GTE teams getting spanked by cars built to no particular standard. They don’t want to mess with ACO’s class structure. They just want to get enough cars on the grid to run a race.

Apparently a few British teams are willing to slow their GT3s and take part at Donnington, which is good for all involved. Whether GT3 teams would be willing to join ALMS on this basis is unknown.

Mixing GTE and GT3 would be the supreme test of racing political ability: to get all the cars equal and keep all the teams from killing the scrutineers and rules-makers, or storming out of the series crying “Unfair!” …

The question is twofold: Will GT3 teams accept diminished performance and status (and will their sponsors); and will factories continue to build specialized GTE cars for one series (basically) when they can more easily build GT3 models for many series.

BMW has already made it clear they only want to build Z4s and DTM cars, which means ALMS/ELMS/WEC might lose them if arrangements can’t be made. How many other manufacturers will find it feasible to build two completely different cars, one purpose-built for racing with limited customer appeal, and one based on road-going chassis with much wider customer potential? Better to spend time and money lobbying ACO than building ACO-specific cars, perhaps.

What we want as fans doesn’t enter into it. What the factories, teams, and sponsors are willing to do, and what they can convince ACO to do, will decide what GT looks like for the next several years.

End of GT? Yes, the sky Is falling—but it is falling very slowly. I think GT racing will last for a little while more—say, as long as people drive cars on the road. I wouldn’t worry about that too much.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by pablocomics

Remove the massive restrictors to the GTE and the GT3 will be turtles compared with GTE (and maybe the LMP2). The GTE engines are much, much, much more sofisticated than GT3

Doesn't that strike you as odd. Much more expensive, and more sophisticated cars are no faster, due to restrictors. So, you could get the same performance, with less sophistication and cost, and you are not doing this because?

[Jonerz]

Unfortunately, GT3 cars aren't considerably less expensive than GTE cars for the most part. Their to the manufacturer has been offset more by teams buying them all over the world and opening America up to GT3 might be help, but costs are escalating completely unrestrained by the SRO and is likely to cause the class to burn out quickly.

Chris

[Speed-King]

I seem to remember that there is a fixed cost ceiling of 400.000 Euros in place in GT3 and so far no car has gone over that.

There are, however, ways to get around such a ceiling (upgrade kits, increased fees on spares, revisions, etc.) so who knows how much that will help.

But even so, you can still buy a winning GT3-contender for around 300.000 Euros (GT3R), whereas a competitive GTE-car is probably closer to half a million (if not north of that!), especially with the Porsche that used to be the cheapest of the bunch looking less than competitive this year.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I seem to remember that there is a fixed cost ceiling of 400.000 Euros in place in GT3 and so far no car has gone over that.

There are, however, ways to get around such a ceiling (upgrade kits, increased fees on spares, revisions, etc.) so who knows how much that will help.

But even so, you can still buy a winning GT3-contender for around 300.000 Euros (GT3R), whereas a competitive GTE-car is probably closer to half a million (if not north of that!), especially with the Porsche that used to be the cheapest of the bunch looking less than competitive this year.

And 2 years ago all new GT3s cost just under 300,000, so that must have been the cap at that point...

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Félix

And 2 years ago all new GT3s cost just under 300,000, so that must have been the cap at that point...

I think at least the Aston and the Ford were above that pretty much from the get-go...

[Koppie]

I don't understand all the negative comments aimed at GT3 being introduced to ALMS/ELMS. I just see it as the GTC class evolving into something more competitive with a wider range of cars to choose from and most importantly from the fans point of view something far more exciting to watch.

As the PC class was intended for LMP, GTC should be seen in the same way: as a springboard for smaller teams looking for a way into serious sportscar racing.

In no way do I think it'll harm GTE and instead it'll prove to be beneficial in the long run for the survival of the ALMS and ELMS... and that's what is ultimately the most important thing here.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Koppie

I don't understand all the negative comments aimed at GT3 being introduced to ALMS/ELMS.

It’s not so much a problem of people not liking GT3; it could be a great addition with some changes…

COMPETENTLY BoP the cars once at the beginning of the season and let the season play out without idiotic ballast and restrictor changes every race. This would require all participants to test and agree to the BoP before they signed on for a season. Testing and BoP session could be an interesting event in itself.

Under no circumstances allow mythical beasts, if there is no road going version there shouldn’t be a race version. No prototypes in disguise, everyone knows what/who they are; Aquilas, Moslers, and Enzos in drag need not apply.

No in season updates; lock cars in to BoP session state.

No introduction of a new car mid-season; must go through BoP at start of season before they gain entrance to the series.

Get rid of Pro/Am and other driver classifications; you can either drive or you can’t. Incompetence and lack of talent should not be rewarded, gentlemen drivers should just be glad they are allowed to participate.

Well I could rant on, but what’s the point, the fix is in on GT3 as long as SRO/FIA is in control.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by kyoung

Testing and BoP session could be an interesting event in itself.

...I bet it would, with all the sand bags involved.

[vogelmann4]

Couldn't the series organize a week where each participating manufacturer beings a car to Sebring/Road Atlanta, hire a driver and that driver drives each car. BOP them within whatever is deemed acceptable and lock the cars from there.

Seems like an impartial way to see the cars true performances for minimal cost.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by vogelmann4

Couldn't the series organize a week where each participating manufacturer beings a car to Sebring/Road Atlanta, hire a driver and that driver drives each car. BOP them within whatever is deemed acceptable and lock the cars from there.

Seems like an impartial way to see the cars true performances for minimal cost.

That's exactly what the SRO has been doing for years... see how it turned out!

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by vogelmann4

Couldn't the series organize a week where each participating manufacturer beings a car to Sebring/Road Atlanta, hire a driver and that driver drives each car. BOP them within whatever is deemed acceptable and lock the cars from there.
cost.

GT3s do those lottery test sessions you speak of at the start of every single season but the changes really only apply to the first race as most of the models get new weight and restrictor adjustments for the next round... it's a joke

Then on top of that you get these ridculous events like Dubai 24 where the normal BoP isn't enough for organizers, as they "need" to rely on post-qualifying success penalties and joker lap / reference lap times. Apparently the radio le mans team also thinks it's a fabulous way to go motor racing and reminds them of Group C days... ...

[arakis]

hehe they cant just bop the cars and be done with it, because of the idiocy of the rules, there is way too many ways to sandbag/cheat... So they end up with adjustmetn after adjustment after adjustmets... which is excelent for crap manuf, since absolutely no development is needed... and has apsoluly no relevance to anyone other then being a support series for the protos etc.....by itself GT3 has no fan appeal, since the fans cant get excited about their brands, cause it has nothing to do with them how fast the cars go...and the drivers as in any gt series are very low profile( not saying they are bad drivers, I find that some of the drivers in GT ar amongst the best in the world) just that they are not famus/popular..

[Speed-King]

and has apsoluly no relevance to anyone other then being a support series for the protos etc.....by itself GT3 has no fan appeal, since the fans cant get excited about their brands, cause it has nothing to do with them how fast the cars go.

That must be why GT-Masters has a TV-deal of which ALMS, ELMS and WEC can only dream...

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

That must be why GT-Masters has a TV-deal of which ALMS, ELMS and WEC can only dream...

I would argue that most of those viewers would lost their interest pretty quickly if they'd actully take a hard look at the BoP tables... now they probably think that BMW or Audi winning comes through their superior engineering or some crap

And ADAC GT, it's broadcasted on some domestic channels and Motors I believe, is that such a success?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Chiana

I would argue that most of those viewers would lost their interest pretty quickly if they'd actully take a hard look at the BoP tables...

Yeah, but most of them can't be bothered to do so and it's these casual fans the success of every series depends on and that's why Arakis' argument is irrelevant.

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Yeah, but most of them can't be bothered to do so and it's these casual fans the success of every series depends on and that's why Arakis' argument is irrelevant.

Fair enough...

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

That must be why GT-Masters has a TV-deal of which ALMS, ELMS and WEC can only dream...

I am sure you are right, but neither gt series has a tv deal to screen about, and competing on who has a better deal on the bottom of the barrel is irelevant.

Somehow I don't see people arguing here over GT3 wins/etc... We get a race thread which is peaty much forgotten the same day the race is over. While to a casual viewer it might be interesting to watch a few laps of GT3 before he flips a chanell, I still havent seen one person passionate about it.

[MitchZ06]

It's all because of the BoP! Oh the humanity!

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Yeah, but most of them can't be bothered to do so and it's these casual fans the success of every series depends on and that's why Arakis' argument is irrelevant.

Whilst your point is certainly valid, today's "casual fan" is tomorrows "aficionado". The aficionados are the long term-fan base.Without a solid aficionado group, the casual fan will not be anchored and will be just a fleeting glimpse. (like a fad)

[Maelochs]

Ah, definitions …

“Casual” fans as I mean it aren’t just channel flippers who stop for a few minutes and like the action … I am thinking more of the people who try to watch all the races, see maybe half of them because it isn’t That important, and maybe learn some of the drivers’ names by the end of the season.

Think of a “casual” NFL fan (or cricket fan, since this is a transatlantic site): These are people who primarily consume the sport entirely during games or matches and entirely via TV.

These people might even have a favorite team, but probably they aren’t reading several sports websites every day to catch the latest rumors about who is injured, who might be cut or traded … probably they understand the basic rules but couldn’t recognize a specific defense or blitz, and probably aren’t up on how the equipment has changed over the past several seasons, and don’t know all minute the rules changes.

These folks tune in, when it’s convenient, for some rollicking good sports entertainment. They don’t need to live the sport 24/7, they just want to enjoy the game or match or whatever. I’d say folks like this make up the majority of the fanbase in every sport.

I sincerely doubt that 9/10ths of the people at the last ALMS race I attended knew which cars had had weight, wing height, or restrictor adjustments since the last race. I know at the last IndyCar event I attended, a lot of people knew nothing about the new cars or engines—I made a point of asking. They were there for the spectacle, the noise, the excitement … they wanted to see cars go fast.

To me, an aficionado is someone who knows which drivers are new to which teams, who can maybe recognize a bunch of drivers by their helmets, who knows the recent history of the sport, knows who won the championships in each class last season, which teams are Ppro-Am or all-Pro, which get the most factory support—and has probably read a thread on the latest BoP adjustments, too.

The aficionado has Mulsanne Mike’s website bookmarked, and this one and a couple other key sites; the casual fan probably doesn’t even visit the series’ main websites; he or she just wants to watch on TV, or maybe go to a race if it is close to home.

The casual fan is the driving economic force, because they are the vastest majority of fans in general. Based on how many people I see on the various boards, and based on my many conversations with people at various tracks, most people—even those actually attending races—don’t really know a whole lot about what’s going on beyond what they see or have seen on TV.

Those are the fans the various series need to score, because three-quarters of them will be watching a race on any given weekend; a million casual fans is 750,000 viewers on any given weekend. That’s ratings to take to the sponsors.

[fieldodreams79]

I think I meet both of maelochs definitions:

I am the first to admit that I am a technical idiot and choose to read other articles about my industry (not automotive, unfortunately) rather than threads regarding technical changes (big or small), or articles on whose restrictor is larger than whose and who has had weight added and why or the general squabbling about BoP; just not very interested in that side of the sport and is probably why I am (motorsport) technical idiot. I love the noise, the sights, the smells (if at the circuit), but watch it for the entertainment...don't we all?

However, I can identify some drivers by helmets, watch every ALMS race (live or replay) and watch/listen to every ALMS session that is broadcasted (if time allows). I have certain websites bookmarked, follow some drivers on social media,come here at least 4 or 5 times a day, know for the most part who is in what ride and become emotional at times regarding results, happenings and incidents.

What am I? I have passion for motors and motorracing, but life gets in the way.