what if other chassis had audi/bentley's engine

RobweenerPI · 19 Mar 2003, 17:44 (Ref:541362)

I wondering how much faster the current crop of good and promising chassis could be if they had Audi's engine. Not even precisely for the more power, but the durability. If they had engines that could run all out for 24 hours do you think they could match Audi's pace?? I'm thinking the DOME, Courage, and Oreca Dallara mainly.

**FIRE** · 19 Mar 2003, 19:19 (Ref:541446)

I think they would be closer to the pace. But the chassis is also a very important factor in the success of Audi.

rdjones · 19 Mar 2003, 19:30 (Ref:541453)

Interest question, it would be very interesting, I am not sure. But it would be interesting to see what would happen.

pirenzo · 19 Mar 2003, 20:19 (Ref:541487)

Well, as far as i am aware, Audi has a power deficit to the Judd GV4. Where the engine wins is on economy and reliability. It seems that testing is the key. If you can afford to test until you've broken every part in the car at least once, you know precisely where the problems lie.

Tim Northcutt · 19 Mar 2003, 20:28 (Ref:541493)

To echo Pirenzo's point, I'm pretty sure that Audi's trap speeds at LM last year were not in the Top Five, but barely in the Top Ten...

Also, if you remember last year's first hour at LM, the Dome was fast down the straights, but lost its ground in the corners...where Audi's aero package and mechanical grip was far superior (the whole "Downforce without drag" aspects of their chassis) to anyone else in the field, but especially so when compared to the Judd-powered cars that had more top-end....

I will say this....that engine sure jumps hard and fast when coming out of corners!!!!

An engine I'd like to know more about...and ultimately see in an LMP car...is the Subaru horizontal 6 with twin turbos that was under the hood in a "super roadster" they unveiled at one of the recent European Auto Shows

pirenzo · 19 Mar 2003, 20:49 (Ref:541513)

Apparently, when the R8 was tested by some driver for Autosport, he was told that once in forth gear, no matter what he did, he wouldn't be able to spin the car, so good was it's grip. But as all of you who have seen it will know, the car goes round on rails. Thats where it advantage is.

pirenzo · 19 Mar 2003, 20:50 (Ref:541516)

God,i make it sound like it really does go round on rails!
No i mean it appears to go round on rails. It's advantage is the fact that the grip is so good that it looks that way

MulsanneMike · 19 Mar 2003, 21:58 (Ref:541606)

Clearly the Audi has a power ADVANTAGE! Look at the trap speeds from '02, Audis in 6-8 place and only 4 mph off the fastest speed. Add to that being faster over the lap. In order to get those traps speeds when they are clearly carrying more downforce (and drag) they must have a power advantage.

pirenzo · 19 Mar 2003, 22:10 (Ref:541631)

Yes, but if you can improve your speed out of the corner, your are bound to go faster down the straights. If they have an advantage it must be aero, and power. Of course they do have that uncannily well drilled crew, who can, and do cope with any problem on the car, in seconds. Gearboxes are only one example.

C_g · 19 Mar 2003, 22:17 (Ref:541643)

The Audi does have a power advantage over everyone else. The biggest show of that was at Road America last year. They walked away from everyone on the straights.

And this year's Bentley has even more of a power advantage. Le Mans should be interesting.

MulsanneMike · 19 Mar 2003, 23:22 (Ref:541694)

That Audi has an aero. advantage pretty much goes with out saying.

danhx · 19 Mar 2003, 23:41 (Ref:541708)

It seems that if you had a power advantage you'd be willing to carry more downforce knowing that you'd still have a higher top speed than most others and the ones that were faster wouldn't be by much. Conversely, if you were at a disadvantage some might trim the car out to get as much top end as possible. That's probably why the Dome and company were a little quicker than the Audi's in a straight line. With all the work - and money! - spent on that Audi V8 i can't believe that the GV4 would be more powerful.

MulsanneMike · 20 Mar 2003, 00:13 (Ref:541728)

I always wondered why Dome and company didn't turn some of their speed into downforce and match the Audis on the straights perhaps making some additional time up in the corners with slightly increased grip. Clearly they were slower on the lap than Audi, so if they took some of that speed advantage and turned it into downforce, maybe they could make up time in the corners against Audi. Though there are many extraneous factors, one being how carrying more drag would effect fuel consumption. Obviously Audi's power, fuel, and aero advantage gave them more options than other teams.

RacingManiac · 20 Mar 2003, 00:33 (Ref:541737)

I don't think the Judd runner have power advantage over Audi, at Le Mans, Dome is fast because it is slippery, its designed for that type of European track and as a result they tend to have more legs on the fast track. But from the performance of the R8 in the ALMS on US-type of track, which are usually shorter and twistier, R8 clearly have their advantage, which goes to suggest they probably is carrying more downforce on the baseline, and consequently they probably have some disadvantage in terms of drag. But since it did not really become a disadvantage at Le Mans, suggest to me that they do have the power to overcome that inherit drag....

Chevyguy · 20 Mar 2003, 08:27 (Ref:541894)

Pirenzo, you make a great point about the Joest crew. Very well rehearsed and little wasted motion. You don't see them running into each other, and you don't see them yanking the air hose because it got caught on the front left corner. My favorite all time Joest pit stop came at Le Mans '01. Two guys ran and got the front bodywork while two others brought the new piece, the first pair went to remove the back bodywork while the second pair ran to the garage, then a third brought the new rear piece. In a matter of seconds the aero was completely altered. Much differant than a guy with a hex wrench pounding on the wing. Of course, the design of the car is largely responsible for these pit stop marvels. We've all seen the rear end changes and the thirty second brake pad and rotor change demonstration. What an amazing piece of machinary!

Tim Northcutt · 20 Mar 2003, 14:28 (Ref:542142)

You make excellent points, Mike...

I've always heard the mantra of Audi's "downforce without drag," but the laws of Physics really make that a "downforce with a little less drage at best" and that the Audi engine HAS to have a ton of power to overcome the downforce on the straights, yet still be in the ballpark on trap speeds.

From watching the Audis run, I must say that I am most impressed with the speed they hold in corners and how they seem to be in a league of their own for acceleration out of the corners....in thyose two areas they seem unmatched...

To Pirenzo:

Holding speed in corners would help a car get up to speed quicker early on the straight, but has nothing to do with the overall top end, like a trap speed measured at the high point before cars decellerate to line up for the next curve....just my thoughts...

Sean Crockett · 20 Mar 2003, 21:29 (Ref:542495)

On the evidence of last year's race, I would think that the Audi V8 certainly has more power in race conditions; the Judd powered cars had obviously been advised to cut the revs substantially to get the car through 24 hours.

What I'd really like to see is someone do a deal to use the Mercedes engine from '98...that was a real flyer!! No, seriously, that V8 in a Dallara might be able to do a serious job....or what about the Toyota GT1 engine in a Dome?

pirenzo · 20 Mar 2003, 21:51 (Ref:542515)

I'd like to see that Dome with max height rear wing, and deep endplates. I think it's a fabulous car. How good is the GV5 as opposed to the GV4? IMO the Dome is definitely the best "privateer" car out there.

Tim Northcutt · 20 Mar 2003, 21:55 (Ref:542517)

The GV5 (MG/Judd 5L V-10) is what the Doran/Lista Dallara is running...

It supposedly has a lot more torque...

I agree...that engine would be a plus for Racing for Holland...

MulsanneMike · 20 Mar 2003, 22:00 (Ref:542525)

At Le Mans last year it was estimated that the Judds were generating between 500 and 530 hp in race configuration. Judd had suggested big rev cuts for the race in order to keep the engines together.

brightline · 21 Mar 2003, 04:40 (Ref:542742)

Having now seen the Audi and Bentley side by side at Sebring, they both run on rails. The idea of putting the audi engine into another chassis reminded me of when Doran put the Judd in the back of the Ferrarri 333sp. Wow, everytime that went by you expected the high pitched ferrari whine but got the loud Judd pitch. Took a little while to get used to. I think they called it the Doran Special (correct me if I'm wrong).

But now let me flip the topic...what if someone put another engine in the R8 chassis? Would it be as fast with the Judd(mg), Ford (Yates,Elan), Ferrari, BMW V12, or ChampCar Cosworth? any thoughts?

RobweenerPI · 21 Mar 2003, 05:04 (Ref:542752)

Quote:

IMO the Dome is definitely the best "privateer" car out there.

Maybe you should watch some sportscar races then before you say that. Everytime I've seen the Dome run it breaks. And the Riley and Scott MK3 has easily been the best "privateer" car for years. And now is even better as the MK III C. I can't wait to see what R&S can do this year on tracks that suit that car better.

**Aysedasi** · 21 Mar 2003, 13:01 (Ref:543103)

Quote:

Originally posted by RobweenerPI
Maybe you should watch some sportscar races then before you say that. Everytime I've seen the Dome run it breaks. And the Riley and Scott MK3 has easily been the best "privateer" car for years.

Not everywhere

pirenzo · 21 Mar 2003, 13:36 (Ref:543143)

OK, so i haven't seen many races, but i think that it's the fastest. OK so to win, first you must finish. Besides, there's no competition on looks for one thing

**Aysedasi** · 21 Mar 2003, 14:05 (Ref:543177)

Quote:

Originally posted by pirenzo

Besides, there's no competition on looks for one thing

That, at least, is true.

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