[LM24] Nissan return to Le Mans (G56)

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by hcl123

Besides what rules Garage 56 has to obey ? .. LPM1 .. 2 ? 8MJ ... 16 ?

No, the battery is 12 kWh = 43 MJ. See post #696 and #700.

Originally Posted by hcl123

engine seriously lacks power for any records ... but electric motors don't. 16 MJ or more, and could be the funniest Le Mans i ever watched lol

The original Deltawing was almost able to match the LMP2 pace with only 300 hp.

[hcl123]

Interesting!

But with those 43 MJ ... are they able to release it per lap- if possible- or are they restricted to a determined max value of release.

8 MJ = 8,000 KW 1 sec in 35sec = 228.35 KW = 306 hp constant during that 35 sec

43 MJ / 8 = 5.375x more or 5.375x35 = 3: min 13: sec almost an entire lap at the average power of 306 hp (which is a lot since they don't need that value at corners and slower parts )

400hp engine + 306 electric = 706 hp average ! (a LOT for average)

the problem is that even with most of

*energy of exhaust recuperated...

*plus with ultra efficient braking regeneration...

*plus with dynamic shock absorber recuperating ( ~1 KWh for 4 wheels which is terrific)



http://phys.org/news/2011-07-energy-...ncy-award.html
http://phys.org/news188035494.html#nRlv
http://phys.org/news153505357.html#nRlv
http://phys.org/news432.html#nRlv

* plus with the car covered (painted) with solar ambient scavenging cells
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thin-film_solar_cell
http://phys.org/news/2011-05-solar-p...nt-energy.html
http://www.gizmag.com/electromagnetic-harvester/26130/

*plus with air dynamic wind turbine in the front
http://www.gizmag.com/bird-friendly-wind-turbine/23961/ (would be smaller)

* plus with B-EMF (somehow) recuperating electric motors
http://www.geminielectricmotor.com/

They could achieve much more than 43MJ per lap, but there is no way to recharge a battery of 43MJ (12KWh) in less than 4 minutes !!.. no way

So perhaps 16 MJ... which might yet come too short

[miatanut]

Most of this stuff about how it's released, how it's recovered, at least what's been announced in press releases, is discussed earlier in this thread.

No wind turbines, no solar cells.

[hcl123]

i know there isn't solar cells etc

I was telling *if* they used it and much more, they could reach 43MJ continuous and much more.

*All* energy comes from the fuel... what is spend from the high voltage battery (storage) must be re-charged or the battery could fade away long before the end. 12 KWh is only to give it the necessary *power density*, no way in a single lap all that energy is spend and recharged ( for now that is, with current techs).



That engine even with only 400 hp *out*, is perhaps putting *in* fuel equivalent to 1800 hp ( lets say 1700)

If 8 MJ corresponds roughly to 35sec at 300hp... in 3:35 min (average lap time LM to win) corresponds to 52.3 hp average electric entire lap... 16MJ to 104.6 hp average electric entire lap ... 43 MJ to 281 hp average electric entire lap

Yet 400 + 281 = 681 hp average.. for the other 1700 hp or so we have not reached yet overall 50% efficiency.

There is still a long road to go... with innovative tech its quite possible around 50% overall efficiency by *recuperation methods (various)*... meaning an hybrid-o- electric could have constantly electric power at least half as powerful the engine ( which is not the case, more than half the time ~2 min will be nothing, and in the rest of time 1:35min, electric quite more powerful than engine ).

I hope ZEOD is a great sucess even if it doesn't win... at least it might show that 16 MJ is more than possible... a certainty.

[ perhaps this could go to future EVO rules lol ]

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by hcl123

Interesting!

But with those 43 MJ ... are they able to release it per lap- if possible- or are they restricted to a determined max value of release.

8 MJ = 8,000 KW 1 sec in 35sec = 228.35 KW = 306 hp constant during that 35 sec

43 MJ / 8 = 5.375x more or 5.375x35 = 3: min 13: sec almost an entire lap at the average power of 306 hp (which is a lot since they don't need that value at corners and slower parts )

400hp engine + 306 electric = 706 hp average ! (a LOT for average)

They could achieve much more than 43MJ per lap, but there is no way to recharge a battery of 43MJ (12KWh) in less than 4 minutes !!.. no way

So perhaps 16 MJ... which might yet come too short

You really need to learn to read the archives on this forum

11 laps on the internal combustion engine (400 hp, at LMP2 pace), during which the battery is recovered with braking. Followed by 1 fully electric lap (330 hp, at between LMP2 and GTE pace).

Hence the name Zero Emission on Demand.

[hcl123]

I did, but i don't think they gonna do that

That is marketing.... he! like a 800 hp engine or something... and there is 2 good valid reasons.

1) the laps with only the engine and or the electric motor are going to be slower... the motor then considerably more ( its much less power overall) -> much better and faster to do it always in hybrid mode like the rest of the teams.

2) the lap with only the battery... electric motor... is going to considerably discharge this battery... each recharge could take at least half a dozen minutes in each "refueling"

LOL ... much better do 11 laps only in hybrid mode if possible ( it is ), than that crazy 11+1 marketing stunt... if they want to really really really be "zero emissions" -> get rid of the engine lol

[ that marketing stunt could not pose great refueling penalty... unless they go really slow, specially in electric mode... LMP2 pace ? bah! a movable chicane LOL ]

[gwyllion]

Sorry, but you are wrong. The whole point of the Nissan ZEOD is to show that they can do one lap around the Le Mans on pure electric power

The only issue that they have is that Le Mans is a 24 hour race. It would be rather stupid that car has to come in the pits after every lap and stand stationary for 30 minutes to recharge the battery before it can do a next lap.

[hcl123]

yes but that is not much of an accomplishment... even the Leaf could 6 or 7 laps at full throttle (much slower). Tesla much more, Renault, BMW, Mercedes... Audi the same ( all have electric cars able to have many laps full throttle )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dTFKX6NgnM (R8 e-tron all electric not bad.. fast)

To me as you are saying, they are there to capitalize a marketing stunt... a sunday drive shown ... not a race.

[deltawing]

So you think is that easy to make a car go at 300 km/h and can go around entire lap on electric, then repeat that every 11 laps for the duration of 24 hours?

[Bandicoot17]

Originally Posted by hcl123

yes but that is not much of an accomplishment... even the Leaf could 6 or 7 laps at full throttle (much slower). Tesla much more, Renault, BMW, Mercedes... Audi the same ( all have electric cars able to have many laps full throttle )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dTFKX6NgnM (R8 e-tron all electric not bad.. fast)

To me as you are saying, they are there to capitalize a marketing stunt... a sunday drive shown ... not a race.

Of course it's an achievement. They'll be the first to do a lap of Le Mans completely on electric power.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

Of course it's an achievement. They'll be the first to do a lap of Le Mans completely on electric power.

Completely on electric power AND at close to competitive pace.

[deltawing]

[optica]

Looking tidy....makes you wonder what those ducts above rear wheels are doing and why different sizes.

[deltawing]

Perhaps one radiator cooling the engine, the other the battery (simplifying things) and depending on the weather one may need less air "in" than the other?...

[optica]

They look as though they would have pretty dramatic effect on the aero if cooling is their only purpose. Hope we eventually get the answer.

[deltawing]

Here is a great shot showing the big honking radiator behind the tire:

[joeb]

That picture gives a good sense of scale with the driver sitting there.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

Of course it's an achievement. They'll be the first to do a lap of Le Mans completely on electric power.

achievement (damn good) for me will be this

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=3267

http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=3274

Win!

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by optica

They look as though they would have pretty dramatic effect on the aero if cooling is their only purpose.....

On the other hand, the exits are in a very large low pressure area, behind the flat rear, so that may have some really great effect on reducing overall radiator drag. If they are closing the intake on that radiator (assuming is the engine radiator) and they are at 400 hp, that sounds really good, considering how much cooling issues the DW had (as long as the reports were true) when it changed to the more powerful engine.

[optica]

Originally Posted by deltawing

On the other hand, the exits are in a very large low pressure area, behind the flat rear, so that may have some really great effect on reducing overall radiator drag. If they are closing the intake on that radiator (assuming is the engine radiator) and they are at 400 hp, that sounds really good, considering how much cooling issues the DW had (as long as the reports were true) when it changed to the more powerful engine.

The more you look at it you notice the changes from the original DW.
Testing photos seem to show Gurney flaps on one side only though one picture looks as though some bodywork is missing so looks like some experimenting going (guess that's what testing is for!). Good that we are getting a bit of a look in though.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by deltawing

Find it hard to fathom how much uglier the Deltawing Coupe is compared to this.

I'd even go as far as describing the ZEOD as pretty.

[optica]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

Find it hard to fathom how much uglier the Deltawing Coupe is compared to this.

I'd even go as far as describing the ZEOD as pretty.

I agree the Zeod is a much better rendition of the DW design. The nose of the Zeod looks so much better than the phallic snout on the DW and the cockpit looks in proportion to the car. It seems a pity the Panoz version now looks so much uglier. Perhaps the Zeod might inspire some beautifying of the DW once they can find some reliability.

[Mike E]

4 day test for the ZEOD at Ricard this month.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/113254

[Mike E]

Here is some video of the Snetterton test.

http://racer.com/videos/item/102429-...-track-testing

[GT6]

looking forward to actually seeing it race