[LM24] Nissan return to Le Mans (G56)

[ss_collins]

No. There was this rumor that Frazer Nash* was supposed to announce one yesterday, but to me that sounds like an actual joke.

No joke
http://www.frazer-nash.com

[TzeiTzei]

Originally Posted by optica

I think the ACO should make an exception for G56 projects by allowing them to be returned to the pits to be revived if possible. After all they aren't competing with anyone else in the race and their reason for being there at all is to prove new technologies. It seems almost hypocritical to just leave it sitting deserted by the trackside. That doesn't help the development of anything.

Well it certainly proved to be unreliable. Isn't that something?

But I don't really care. It's 24 hour race, and the G56 gizmos should be designed and built with that in mind. The Cedric never looked like it was going to stay in one piece for long.

[nobster]

a lot of time to prepare a car for Le Mans and then a bad show up! I had them as first retirement in my poll!

[Maelochs]

Looking back after a couple of days, I'd say the ZEOddity was a huge failure for Nissan.

Sure, they broke a speed record---in practice. Not real good promo material--nobody takes practice seriously. They did one lap on battery power--not a big deal to people who have been driving Leafs for years.

Nissan basically got no good publicity out of the ZEOD. No one is going to be fooled---they didn't last half an hour, no one is going to buy that, no matter how cyclonically spun, as a positive result. If they try to use it for ad material, they will probably lose respect ... "Yeah, my Volt can run a lot longer than that .... "

On top of that, the component which failed was basic, not cutting-edge. Nissan come s off looking completely amateur or totally unprepared ... which, frankly, they were. That's the risk of trying to go cutting-edge for publicity---you fail publicly.

Saddest thing is the Ben-Bowlby inspired parts never got a real test. The racing tricycle concept remains unproven after three years of attempts.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Saddest thing is the Ben-Bowlby inspired parts never got a real test. The racing tricycle concept remains unproven after three years of attempts.

Agreed.

[deltawing]

To quote Baretsky from the movie: Defeat is a good thing for the character, if you take it the right way

[optica]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Looking back after a couple of days, I'd say the ZEOddity was a huge failure for Nissan.

Sure, they broke a speed record---in practice. Not real good promo material--nobody takes practice seriously. They did one lap on battery power--not a big deal to people who have been driving Leafs for years.

Nissan basically got no good publicity out of the ZEOD. No one is going to be fooled---they didn't last half an hour, no one is going to buy that, no matter how cyclonically spun, as a positive result. If they try to use it for ad material, they will probably lose respect ... "Yeah, my Volt can run a lot longer than that .... "

On top of that, the component which failed was basic, not cutting-edge. Nissan come s off looking completely amateur or totally unprepared ... which, frankly, they were. That's the risk of trying to go cutting-edge for publicity---you fail publicly.

Saddest thing is the Ben-Bowlby inspired parts never got a real test. The racing tricycle concept remains unproven after three years of attempts.

When all the moans about Nissan not coming up with an LMP1 car and producing the Zeod instead many felt the car was an easy ride to some to great PR with little effort. PR works both ways and I don't think Nissan were so naive as to not consider the huge risk they were taking with the Zeod. Unfortunately the car did fail very publicly and has not done any favours for Darren Cox. I don't think it has done any real harm to Ben Bowlby (lawsuits apart)and the Deltawing idea which has had moments when it has revealed its potential only to be dogged by mechanical failures that don't have much to do with the car's basic design. Perhaps it was unfortunate that Nissan chose to go with the Deltawing format to try and prove a pretty challenging engineering concept. If the Zeod had been a conventional lay-out vehicle I doubt its failure would have been pounced on quite so gleefully by the anti-DW brigade. If anyone does see the Zeod as a failure for the Deltawing concept then they are more the victim of personal bias at the expense of logical thinking. Nissan have too much invested in the Zeod to not let it rise from the ashes and for anyone with an interest in innovative engineering it would be a stupid waste to consign it to the dustbin because of a simple mechanical failure. Most of the leading LMP 1 cars had mechanical failures at some stage of the race so I don't think Nissan (or RML!) should really be seen as amateur when they already have a long pedigree of success in the racing world.

[wewantourdarbyback]

It was a failure, pure and simple. They can say they came with those two objectives all they want, but they came to the Le Mans 24 hours and managed less than one. Who cares about doing an electric lap in a warm up, you need to do it under race conditions, where you can't run the car to an ideal lap to build up the electric power and have to deal with the problems that only racing brings up.

The delta wing itself managed to last longer, yes it was not as complicated, but it was not a manufacturer backed project (no matter how many Nissan stickers they stuck on it or how many times Darren Cox wittered on about it).

I also wonder if Darren Cox himself is becoming a hindereance to Nissan? Sure he appears to have a great relationship with some of the broadcasters, but the only reaction I've heard to him from fans is negative.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by wewantourdarbyback

I also wonder if Darren Cox himself is becoming a hindereance to Nissan? Sure he appears to have a great relationship with some of the broadcasters, but the only reaction I've heard to him from fans is negative.

You're thinking of the wrong fans. Go look at GTplanet/Forza Motorsport forums and the like, that is who most of Nissan's PR output is aimed towards, not the week-long La Sarthe campers and avid RCE readers.

Speaking of which, Cox always has GT Academy to fall back on for a good news story, and that is all we will hear about until the ZEOD is ready to race again.

[Maelochs]

Part of Nissan's ZEOD promo program included going beyond the tuner market.

Judging from ads they played prior to the race, they wanted to position Nissan as the forward-thinking, cutting-edge, tech leader among car companies, with ads aimed at the general audience/market.

I don't want to be negative, but I'd have to say the ZEOD was a colossal failure---there is simply nothing to be gained promotionally form all that was invested in the car.

Maybe the car will come back later in the season and do something at some smaller races, but a strong showing at Le Mans ---not in terms of placing but performing---would count a whole lot. Finishing a race at a track no one has heard of doesn't compare.

I'd say Nissan flushed its investment on the ZEOD.

[TF110]

It will most likely be at Fuji- a track that IS heard of- in front of 40,000+ fans. Its not dead, and its too soon to call it a failure. If it leads to an awesome lmp1, its a success.

[optica]

If they are/were using the Zeod as a development vehicle for future ideas to be incorporated in their LMP1 project then it seems most unlikely that a gearbox failure would be a reason to dump the project....I think the fact that the car did so little running on the test day indicated they had found unforeseen problems the moment the car began running on the Le Mans circuit. The PR spiel coming from Darren Cox seemed to reveal all was not going as expected and they weren't going to be able to rectify the problems before the actual race. It was perhaps seen as a massive failure to those who wanted it to be but in reality the only failure was in the gearbox and that is the sort of problem that any new engineering project can encounter. At least it made the startline, the Green GT didn't. Garage 56 is proving to be no easy option for anyone taking it on.

[joeb]

I don't think the project was/is a failure. They had a component fail during the cars first race! They seem to be keeping with the program and may be running additional rounds this year. Personally I think that is great news. Also, there have been folks bad mouthing Darren Cox, but he is truly an asset to Nissan and the sport as a whole. Did anybody else here him on MWM yesterday? He gets PR, and PR is exactly what the WEC needs. He had a very good grip on the current problems of the WEC from a promotion standpoint and the more people like Darren we have bringing ideas and concerns to the FIA/ACO, the better off the sport will be.

[Maelochs]

I don't think the ZEOD itself is a failure. I do think the Le Mans Garage 56 part of it was a complete failure: they whole idea is to showcase new technology on a big stage And in a tough environment.

Sure any part of any car can fail at any timer, but this was soert of the prom Night for the ZEOD, the spotlight, on stage presentation of the project. If they didn't take the time to test Every component ... well, look what happened.

If any of us were in a similar situation, making a public debut---or even a big job interview, which isn't public but is a one-shot, get-it-right-because-it-counts situation, I think we'd make very sure everything was working, everything was working, everything was tested and the performance would come off correctly.

If you were going to make a public presentation, wouldn't you practice your lines? Test the laser pointer, the mic, the laptop, the projector, every thing you could?

Anyway ... the hybrid system might have lasted. The car might have been quick all day, night, and day. Every system might have been perfect; the thing might have done one lap in thirteen on pure electric power, thus perfectly demonstrating what Nissan wanted to show.

Instead ... a simple, basic component crapped out ... in Half an Hour.

What? Was it a twelve-year-old transmission? Did someone not check it for fluid? What does it say about Nissan if they cannot manage to do the most basic part of the car correctly? Notice any other cars losing gearboxes after half an hour?

I'd call it a pretty big embarrassment ... but publicly it won't be because Nissan simply won't publicize it---which was The Whole Point of the Exercise.

I saw a Lot of ZEOD commercials before the race; Nissan was making a big deal about it and obviously planned to make a whole lot more out of this. At least the PR part of the plan was already set to go and of high quality. But somehow no one said. "Let's inspect or replace every single thing on the car which could break or malfunction in any way. This is out Big Chance, with all eyes upon us; let's get it right."

It would even have been better if something related to the electrics had failed, because that stuff was supposed to be cutting-edge.

And yes, the ZEOD will no doubt run successfully at several other events. Thing is, there is only one LM 24 per year, and it is far and away the biggest stage in sports car racing, and ZEOD dropped the ball in a big way while climbing on stage.

[Japanese Samurai]

"RML GROUP" badge on the ZEOD RC engine.

[skycafe]

Has there been a definitive answer as to what the failure point was? Input or drive shaft? All of these components are so lightened they are all seemingly on the edge.

[Japanese Samurai]

According to Japanese Autosport web,
the cause of the retirement was a gear box trouble.
"The conventional parts broke down". Darren Cox says so.
http://as-web.jp/news/info.php?c_id=9&no=57579

[Adam43]

He said that on Radio Le Mans a few times.

[optica]

A couple of links with some info..

http://www.torquenews.com/1080/zeod-...-mans-24-hours

http://cars.aol.co.uk/2014/06/14/le-...r-nissan-zeod/

Seems they did get it back to the pits but problem was terminal....Some mention of it returning to Garage 56 next year.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by optica

Seems they did get it back to the pits but problem was terminal....Some mention of it returning to Garage 56 next year.

They didn't, and I can say that with supreme confidence, because I saw them bringing the car back. On the back of a flat-bed truck, about 40 minutes after the race was over and people were on the track for the podiums.

[Maelochs]

Seeing as no one else has stepped up and the ZEOD never really got a chance, I'd hope ACO would bend the rules and let it run G56 again.

[Machin]

The ZEOD was at the Goodwood festival of speed this weekend... but not running... this is a hi-res image so you can zoom in and read the details on the spec sheet to the right.



Nissan are confirming Racecar Engineering's weight figure of 700kg incl fuel and driver.

Fuel tank is 53 litres, engine power 400bhp and Electric power = 2x110 kw motors ( 295bhp).

This confirms the figures, and hence chart, in my post over on the Deltawing thread.

Originally Posted by Machin

I know the ZEOD isn't the Deltawing, but none the less, the wheel layout and aero is similar enough that we can now start to see trends. Nissan also had lots of money to properly develop the concept, and had the original designer onboard (unlike the team running the Deltawing coupe in the Tudor championship). I.e there should be no excuses with the ZEOD.

ZEOD weight data taken from Racecar Engineering article (700kg with driver and 50 litres of fuel), my chart assumes the car was light on fuel for qualifying: I have used a figure of 670kg, and 400bhp for the IC as quoted on various sources on the web for their 3 cylinder turbo engine. I have used a figure of 295bhp for the electric only figure, again, taken from Racecar Engineering.

These are qualifying speeds from Le Mans 2014 (best times from all three sessions), except the ZEOD's electric only lap which was during warm up:-

In terms of power to weight the ZEOD was underperforming the original Deltawing....

[Articus]

They were carrying around 120kg extra weight just to do 1 single electric lap. For the rest of the time they are running with the gasoline engine 400bhp only which makes for poor power to weight. To be even worse off, I've read that the engine doesn't actually make 400bhp in normal running. 400bhp is pushing it with all the dials turned up.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by Articus

to do 1 single electric lap.

I realize this had not been done at LeMans before, but is this such a landmark accomplishment? Aren't there currently electric cars at Pike Peak climbing under battery only?

Note, I am not trying to be a jerk, I am just trying to gain perspective.

[nkoske]

Originally Posted by skycafe

I realize this had not been done at LeMans before, but is this such a landmark accomplishment? Aren't there currently electric cars at Pike Peak climbing under battery only?

Note, I am not trying to be a jerk, I am just trying to gain perspective.

Pretty sure an electric car has done a lap of the Nordscheife.

Yup one has.

http://www.toyota-motorsport.com/en/...uerburgring-en