Webber & Button their talent unveiled in 2007 !!!

[Pro Racer]

with both their cars said to be promising could Webber and Button prove all the critics (including the people who have bashed these 2 on here) wrong this year?

[FPV GTHO]

Some would think Hungary proved the critics wrong as regards to Button, whilst they would also suggest Webber being overlooked for the Renault spot has confirmed his status in F1.

As for me, i certainly think Button is capable of more than the 1 win to his name, likewise Webber with his solitary podium.

I dont think either will be in a position to ultimately prove the critics wrong, Button maybe. It'll only take a championship capable car of doing that, race wins wont be enough given the hype handed out to each.

[amier]

I dont think you can even compare Button and Webber. While Webber is fast over a single lap, he does not seem to posses the racing ability and be consistent over the distance. He is more likely to get tangled up in crashes than race wins. Move over webber and let Dornboss show you how to race!

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by amier

Move over webber and let Dornboss show you how to race!

Youre not Dutch by any chance?

[Knowlesy]

If I was to choose someone to move Webber over for, Doornbos would not be the top of the list by any stretch of the imagination!

I find the thread title interesting: talent unveiled. Did both drivers not unveil their talent during their first year in F1? Or, indeed, well before F1?

In all seriousness though, both drivers are at a crucial point but for very different reasons.

Button is a GP winner and now needs to get to the next stage. He needs a regular challenge for wins. This depends a lot on Honda of course and there are some doubts here. But Button has little to prove personally, we know more or less where he stands. He is very good indeed.

Webber is in the last chance saloon. He can qualify well, as well as anyone. We know that. But can he race?

Well, last year I thought he raced very well. But for me the real test of a racer is when he gets up front and the closest Webber was to the front in F1 came in 2005 where he was deeply unimpressive IMO, certainly compared to the assured performances of his teammate Nick Heidfeld. Where 'Quick Nick' was patient and wafted to good, consistent solid results and a few podiums, Mark was banging into everyone, getting into scrapes and generally wasting good qualifying results.

Also, before F1, he was up front in F3000 where he was hammered by Justin Wilson.

So, for me, there are doubts about how Mark copes when he is up front. With a Red Bull-Renault quite likely to power him to the sharp end of the grid at some point, he needs to prove that wrong. And I think he just might.

[Marbot]

Excellent post Knowlesy.

Words right out of my mouth and all that.

[D-Angle]

I would think it's much more serious than them showing their talents. I would say it is a case of them needing to show that they can deliver the goods consistently, and challenge for the front, as their cars will most likely leave them with little or no excuse if they don't.

Coming second became almost acceptable for some in the Schumacher era. I would expect consistently midfield drivers to have a much shorter shelf-life in future.

[Pat_T]

For those saying Webber can't race I'd watch the first stint of Monaco again this year... Webber had a car he obviously felt comfortable with and that was quick enough (a rare occurance for the last 2 years) and first stint he traded fastest laps and sectors with Alonso and Kimi! I thought it was some of the best racing all season, sadly cut short by awful blue-flag marshalling and both Kimi and Webber retiring.
I think it is definately last chance saloon time for Webber though, if the car is there I think he can be in the top 8 and I'd still put him in the top half of talented drivers on the grid.

[amier]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Youre not Dutch by any chance?

Not Dutch mate, but a Brit

Webber has done nothing much in the seasons he has raced..He is on a similar stats and perf level to Sato

Sato:

Drivers' Titles: 0
Seasons in F1: 4
Grand Prix: 51
Wins: 0
Points: 40
Poles: 0
Fastest Laps: 0

Webber:


Drivers' Titles: 0
Seasons in F1: 5
Grand Prix: 86
Wins: 0
Points: 69
Poles: 0
Fastest Laps: 0

[Rushy]

woah looking at your stats if sato did 86 races he would probably have more points than webber lol..

[Knowlesy]

But Sato had a season in a car that finished second in the constructors...

It's just totally irrelevant.

[Rushy]

ohh ye jus realised but if he had stayed wit honda i reckoin he would have had more points than webber,...

[Snrub]

Well first off who says that the Honda and Red Bull are going to be good this year, Honda and Red Bull? We won't really know until we're a few races into the season. Even then it can change dramatically as we witnesses last year with Ferrari or sort of conversely with Williams after the first race.

While we haven't seen Button in a position to fight tooth and nail for a title I think he's well proven himself as a good F1 driver. I don't think he's a match for Kimi, but he's quiet good. Button seems well suited to the current F1 environment which is drive very consistantly and don't crash, etc.

As for Webber, I think he's good, although not as good as Button. Points are not necessarly the best way to compare drivers. Not that I agree, but one could argue that Sato had a season towards the top with Honda and a season at the very bottom with Aguri and that should probably even things out.

I'm quiet interested to see how the BMW drivers do this year. Hopefully we'll see how good Kubica really is. Heidfeld is kind of odd and requires someone to push him to find his limits, but I think he has a boatload of talent. They may have the best lineup in F1. It seems a crime that Vettel is stuck in testing and not rented out to another team.

[amier]

Those I rate higher than Webber,

Massa, Kimi, Alonso, Trulli, Fisichella, Wurz, Ralf, Button, Barrichello, Heilfeld, Sato, Rosberg and Im sure Hamilton has better racecraft too!!

Well the Doornboss thing was a bit of a joke as he is their third driver. But really Bourdais is a tallent and has proved himself a great racer and a worthy champion in the states, if Webber does not perform I really hope he calls it a day.

[Bononi]

Not much to say in this thread after all. I guess all the posts above say all about the expectations on these two drivers.

But hey, talent unveiled ? Maybe one talent we don't know yet.

[mac]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Well, last year I thought he raced very well. But for me the real test of a racer is when he gets up front and the closest Webber was to the front in F1 came in 2005 where he was deeply unimpressive IMO, certainly compared to the assured performances of his teammate Nick Heidfeld. Where 'Quick Nick' was patient and wafted to good, consistent solid results and a few podiums, Mark was banging into everyone, getting into scrapes and generally wasting good qualifying results.

What a load of rubbish.

If "the real test of a racer is when he gets up front", I can recall five times when Webber has been truly up front:

Monaco 2005, Hungary 2005, Australia 2006, Monaco 2006, Hockenheim 2006.

On each and every one of these occasions, Webber has raced impeccably only to be let down by his cars. Add 2005 Suzuka and you've got a list of times when he has driven superbly at the pointy end.

The only blip you could argue was Sepang in 2005 where he was in the mix for a podium and tangled with Fisi - at worst, this incident was 50/50.

Your logic does not add up - but then I knew it wouldn't.

[Raglanparade]

Webber is 30 now. If he fails to impress this season, it may be his last.

There is no reason with an Adrian Newey designed car with a Renault engine to be lacklustre.

But make reference to the Webber/Monaco thing. He has always been brilliant around Monaco. Monaco is a circuit where drivers have more input and the quality of horsepower/car is less important. In 2002, he put the Minardi 7th Quickest in Qualy or Friday practice and stunned the paddock. He got duped by Williams in 2005 and Nick passed him (Webber was ahead, but they pitted Nick first, and Webber got stuck behind the ailing Alonso as a result), and in 2006 he was awesome again before his Cosworth gave way past turn 2 (you could see his disapointment when he threw the steering wheel - as he knew he was on for a podium).

Mark Webber has a place in F1, and he has 2007 to prove it.

[MRJUCY]

The Red Bull team could go either way but even if it's good it won't be a championship contender. Anyone who doesn't rate Webber mustn't have watched Monaco last year where he out drove Kimi & Alonso in what was basically a truck.

[craig1]

I'm a big MW fan, got to be being an Aussie.

But I really hope it all comes together this year or we might not have an Aussie in F1 next year.

I do get annoyed when you see the MW bashers come out though, especially when they compare him to JB.

I wish I had a dollar for every time JB has started up front only to pedal his way backwards, but we don't mention that now he's one 1 race.

Ultimately in F1 you could be the worlds best ever driver but if your driving the worst car on the grid the best you could ever hope for would be mid field.

The worst part of that is no one else would actually know how bad the car is to drive except you.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by mac

On each and every one of these occasions, Webber has raced impeccably only to be let down by his cars. Add 2005 Suzuka and you've got a list of times when he has driven superbly at the pointy end.

And now he has the top chance of running in a Renault... powered car.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by craig1

I wish I had a dollar for every time JB has started up front only to pedal his way backwards, but we don't mention that now he's one 1 race.

He was pedalling backwards ahead of his team mate and other drivers in superior machinery.And pedalled harder than anyone else in the latter half of 2006.

Originally Posted by craig1

Ultimately in F1 you could be the worlds best ever driver but if your driving the worst car on the grid the best you could ever hope for would be mid field.

This is true.But if you can put in consistent performances in a lesser car,then opportunity will come knocking on your door.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Not much to say in this thread after all.

I told you we could have a thread about this!! AGAIN


some people haven't been watching too closely the last few years!

ps what mac said.

[Glen]

As has been mentioned already, if you didn't see Webber's Monaco performance (actually not just 2006, but previous years also) and believe his talent to be "shown" then you probably have decided not to see and nothing will convince you.

Indeed, the same applies to JB - race winner and serial team-mate killer. What more evidence is needed?

[Gerben24]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Also, before F1, he was up front in F3000 where he was hammered by Justin Wilson.

What did Button do before he got into F1? I seriously do not know! I know he did a shoot out for the Williams seat against Junquera (how do you spell his name). I also know he did F3, but didn't become champion.

His win last year was a good drive, but he was a bit lucky with all the 2 retirements in front of him.

Button and Webber are not seen as championship contenders outside England and Australia! I don't know about Webber, but I do know from my years living in England that Button is massively overhyped in the UK.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by Gerben24

Button and Webber are not seen as championship contenders outside England and Australia! I don't know about Webber, but I do know from my years living in England that Button is massively overhyped in the UK.

Hang on a minute, I'm sure even the biggest MW fan does not expect him to be a championship contender this year in a Red Bull!


Agree that Button is well hyped in the UK, but we haven't had a serious British championship challenger for ages. The Honda should be at the right end of the grid, plus Ferrari and Renault have both lost their best drivers, so one can understand some of the hype.