KERS - shocking! (mulitple merges)

[Woolley]

On the whole, road cars don't have accidents quite the same size as a sports prototype. I do fear for our safety, and wonder if any special training measures ought to be undertaken. Kind of flies in the face of the FIA's 'anyone can be a marshal' stance, of course.

I can imagine the discussion, though: "Have you switched it off, driver? Are you sure? Would you mind just holding onto the armco and touching the car...?"

[The STIG]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Actually the motorsport system safety is of great concern, ignoring the Oaktec rally cars - hybrids are actually banned from british motorsport.

And yet an entire race series for pure electric cars, and various other electrically powered machinery with huge voltages are not.

[PVDA]

On road vehicles here in Australia you are required to have a sticker on your registration plates (front & rear) similar to this one



for any vehicle which runs on Liquified Petroleum Gas (LPG**).

There is a similar sticker required on Hybrid vehicles, the reason for this is so that emergency workers know that they are dealing with something different.

As I see it there isn't a major problem with Hybrid vehicles save for the large numbers of batteries usually hidden under the seats and electrolyte leaks from them. They also need to ensure that the electrical cut off switch cut off all the electrical batteries in the vehicle so that it is really dead and not some part of it still alive.

Similar concerns where echo'd when airbags started to appear in vehicles but those noises seem to have gone quiet now that everyone is used to them.

The important thing is we need to know if a vehicle is different to the norm so we know how to react to it when we respond to an incident.

* LPG is very popular in Australia as the price per litre is usually more than half of standard unleaded petrol and fleet owners love it as a result.

[Al Weyman]

I love LPG too for the same reason and was bloody gutted when I went to Pembrey at the weekend as no bugger seems to sell it there at least not on the M4. The one station just accross the bridge had ran out so I recon the trip cost me at least another 40 quid more than it should have and apart from that my SUV runs crap on petrol! I was thinking of converting one of my yanks racers onto LPG as a project if I could get a bit of backing, be a great marketing opportunity for a company I would have thought.

[warweezil]

According to one website there is an LPG filling station at The Texaco Service Station at Trostre Roundabout in Llanelli which you may have passed on your way out of the area - depending on the route you took. I just looked it up as I have been toying with the idea of an LPG car for a while but have been put off to some extent by the apparent lack of fuel facilities. I am amazed to find we have an LPG station in my own town. It seems these guys dont go out of their way to advertise their presence.

Hope this is helpful for the future for any LPG powered people that venture out west to entertain us.

[The STIG]

isn't there an LPG tank in the pit lane at Pembrey? There's also a couple of places in Bridgend which can be handy for a pit stop on the way back. if they're open that is! Anyway Al, you could probably get funding from EEMS for your LPG project.

[ss_collins]

And yet an entire race series for pure electric cars, and various other electrically powered machinery with huge voltages are not.

indeed - makes no sense

[Woolley]

Erm, we're talking hybrids here, not LPG. I think there's a fuel prices thread in PF you can use for that.

So what's the guarantee with hybrids that everything really is off? Lots of batteries, give them a significant Ortelli Monza type shunt and can we be certain that they haven't made their own connections? Or that the electrical cut off switch isn't now live? Road cars don't tend to have shunts that big, and if they do there's usually time for everything to settle down before ES arrive. We're going to be on scene in a few seconds with extinguishers and need to know what to do. That smoke may not respond too well to a foam extinguishant being emptied onto it, for instance.

That might all be irrelevant, I'm no engineer. I'd like to be properly informed before it happens. I want to know how to know on approach that this is a hybrid. And I'd be concerned about fairly inexperienced marshals arriving without the training, unless someone can promise that I don't need to be concerned.

[MagnetON]

http://www.midsouthrescue.org/id43.html is a very useful resource for anyone interested in production hybrid cars and how to deal with them.

[warweezil]

A lot of truths here, after all if these systems are so "well sorted" how come he have had the stories coming out about various little "shock" incidents. Looks to me as if there are still areas that need further work to ensure the safety of all who come into contact with these cars

The fact is that road and race are two very different environments and a lot needs to be done to ensure that both drivers and Marshals/Rescue Crews are fully aware of the issues, and are as protected as possible against harm from this development.

[Stack]

Forgot to mention that Peugeot demonstrated a pukka sports racer hybrid at Silverstone on Sunday (and it wasn't slow!) so we arn't talking Prius type saloon racers.

[Oscar114]

If these are on the way then it maybe an item to include in next years training events.

I have a friend who works for Toyota and I'll ask him if there is any guidance with how to deal with a Prius and any general rules for dealing with these.

It looks from the website linked that you need to understand the model before dealing with any rescue situation.

Being an electrical engineer, you don't mix electrcity and water so foam based extinguishers would be out. Dry powder, CO2 and Halons (if still aloud in your country not in UK) would be effective, but knowing that everything is dead and not getting a shock is another issue entirely.

If I get any info then I'll post it.

[The STIG]

Originally Posted by Stack

Forgot to mention that Peugeot demonstrated a pukka sports racer hybrid at Silverstone on Sunday (and it wasn't slow!) so we arn't talking Prius type saloon racers.

From : http://www.topgear.com/content/news/stories/3226/

[CombeMarshal]

With the F1 cars its a KER system, not a Hybrid, you don't hear of many people being attacked by a Prius!

[Oscar114]

I knew it wouldn't be a prius but I don't know of any sporty hybrids that toyota make and I've not got contacts in any other manufacturers.

That certainly doesn't look like a Prius anyway.

If I get any advice then it may apply to other hybrids but then again there maybe no information available for dealing with these cars on race circuits just on the public road, I'll see what comes back.

[ss_collins]

I don't know of any sporty hybrids that toyota make

Toyota have a GT500 based hybrid racer which won the Tokachi 24

With the F1 cars its a KERS system, not a Hybrid

KERS/Hybrid = Same thing.

What you must understand is that 'hybrid' does not just mean prius style electric, and KERS does not mean just F1.

But concerned with safety in a impact situation (when a marshal would be in contact with a car)

Point to consider - Newton correctly tells us energy cannot be dissapated

So in a crash, an electric hybrid may still have fully charged cells. If a single cell overheats its basically unstoppable until it explodes with some battery types (but not others). But where is it safe to touch the car - tyres are amongst the best insulators in the world, and carbon one of the best conductors, do you want your body to be the earth? whats safe to touch and what isn't (and don't forget electricity can jump)

Hydraulic systems, well a high pressure storage vessel is generally a bit scary.

Flywheel systems, round and round it goes where it stops nobody knows.

Next year its likely that some of you if not all will be faced with at least one of these situations, I'd like to give more advice other than system types amd advice but frankly I can't and niether can any of the experts I've asked.

[CombeMarshal]

Kinetic Energy Recovery System use capacitors, Hybrids don't, thats where the higher risk of shock comes from.
Tyres are not that good insulators, like you said, Electricity can jump, with low profile tyres, there isn't far to jump.
I think this is being over exaggerated!
Hybrid means being able to use 2 or more power systems, KERS is the means of making and storing of electrical energy, I have been referring to the first post titled Hybrid, then relates to the incidents that have happened in F1, two totally different systems

[Stack]

Originally Posted by CombeMarshal

Hybrid means being able to use 2 or more power systems, KERS is the means of making and storing of electrical energy,

Surely for hybrids to be able to use 2 power sources, one, namely electricity has to be stored - hence the batteries.....

[Bodysnatcher]

Listen to SS, he knows more than most...

CombeMarshal is right too
KERS is the name applied to the sort of technology that will be used in F1.

But we're all getting hung up on the "hybrid" word. Hybrid just means a combination of more than one thing.

Currently "hybrid" road cars are combinations of internal combustion engines and electric motors.
The energy for the internal combustion engines is stored as fuel - Petrol, Diesel or LPG.
The energy for the electric motor is stored in batteries - like giant mobile phone or iPod batteries rather than AA or AAA cells. (BTW saw a Hydrogen filling station on the side of a regular filling station when I was in Iceland recently - quite a scary place)

In Formula 1, as Sam said earlier the energy recovered can be stored any way the team likes. Currently we've heard of batteries, flywheels and hydraulics. (Shame, no clockwork or elastic bands ) Then the teams just have to think of a way of getting it back to the wheels.

So, as Combe said the stored electric energy will be in capacitors, since it'll be quicker top get the energy back rather than a more conventional battery. For me, it's the thought of a flywheel of some considerable mass rotating at supersonic speeds in vacuum that gives me the willies.

[JimW]

To complicate things further KERS and Hybrid are not exactly the same thing.

KERS is a Hybrid system when the recovered kinetic energy (stored as chemical energy in a battery, electric energy in capacitors, mechanical energy in flywheels or hydraulics) is being turned around to power the vehicle for all or part of the time or total power demand. (To be pedantic, if you had KERS on a battery powered vehicle and recovered the energy into the battery, it would not be Hybrid at all, just KERS.)

Not all Hybrid systems are KERS, only those which have energy recovery.

As for safety, surely this is what trainees are for.

Jim

[ss_collins]

The terminology is a minefield, don't get hung up on - KERS uses capacitors etc... F1 is gonna be a real mix but from my understanding of this the 908hy is basically a beefed up F1 system. Capacitors and batteries both have risk elements - F1 looks to be going the li-ion battey route, like Peugeot and Zytek in LMP1 (Zytek are also doing an F1 system).

But in F1 we will see two variants on the flywheel theme and possibly one hydraulic (McLarens 1998 system was hydraulic).

These are all KERS... and hybrids... but not all hybrids have KERS (like the Tokyo R&D / Vemac Super GT hybrid)

The invention of this KERS phrase is quite amusing, it used to be called regenerative braking, but I think the marketing bods got to it to confuse the issue. Strictly speaking turbo compounding is also a form of KERS (as it recovers kinetic energy) but I wouldn't call it a hybrid system.

So are they safe? well I'm not convinced the motorsport systems are safe yet but the road derived versions are. Reason for this is that the F1 systems in particular are being built to the utter limit so like all similar things may fail. The sportscars too. But I think the real issue that sticks in my mind is training.

1. How does a marshal know a car is a hybrid (something like the orange spot?)
2. How does a marshal know what type of hybrid or regen brake it is?
3. who will do the training on how to deal with the storage systems (for they be the issue really) and how will a marshal know which system need which treatment?

Perhaps its worth raising these ossues in good time. We will see hybrids in international competition next year, and if I get my way - club competition too!

[Nighthawk]

energy storing super-capacitor batteries
BMW Sauber mechanic received an electric shock while handling a KERS-equipped car ....
fire scare in the early stages of the development of KERS...

Are We going to get some sort of introduction and training in this area...

[Stuart H]

First I've heard about it.

Any how training hmmmmmmmmm: I would say rubber sole'd footwear and brace your self for a shock.
Static that is.

[HairyDJ]

I'm happy working on live electric fences - in fact I tend to get a kick out of it but this stuff is in a different league. The biggest problem would surely be that each team (if there are any left) will have different gizmos so you'd need a picture checklist to recognise & deal with each one - just don't like mixing sparks with fuel ...

[Steven Humphrey]

Has anyone here ever heard of this being a problem in Hybrid cars, are they susceptible to this? are they safe if they have had a crash?[/quote]

The Honda Civic hybrid that ran in sportmaxx was so slow I don't think it was capable of crashing!