KERS - shocking! (mulitple merges) - Page 3

Nighthawk · 21 Dec 2008, 12:10 (Ref:2359209)

Problem or not is a matter that needs to be looked into by all...

Chris Hobson · 21 Dec 2008, 15:08 (Ref:2359258)

This is an interesting one and has been discussed by BMMC Council. We have tried to get details of the systems from at least one of the main manufacturers but have had no response so far.

I will take this up with the MSA Safety Exec and will try to get further info at Autosports Show.

Whatever I get I will send out to all clubs for inclusion in this years training sessions around the country

JimW · 22 Dec 2008, 14:44 (Ref:2359743)

Personally I'd be a lot more scared of a flywheel based system than an electrical one.

But then I'm an electrical engineer, not a mechanical one.

Jim

zakeriath · 20 Jan 2009, 08:00 (Ref:2375047)

Quoted from Renault

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/72880

"We are not used to seeing cars with high voltage stickers. I think there will be some accidents this year. It's inevitable. And you'll probably see some mechanics get nasty shocks. Let's hope it's no more than that. The same could be said of marshals.
"The sport has done a very good job of trying to minimise the risk, to mechanics, technicians and trackside people, but there is still a risk. It's several hundred volts and the potential to be tens of amps, so it's pretty lethal. And it's DC (direct current), so if you hold it you cannot let go."

Hope the Aussies are ready and prepared

Chris Hobson · 24 Jan 2009, 23:05 (Ref:2378456)

I have raised this with the MSA and am awaiting a reply.

As soon as I get anything I will be circulating all clubs and trainers (and putting the details on here)

Stack · 25 Jan 2009, 09:09 (Ref:2378596)

Glad I'm not doing the GP this year. I would say that marshals are more at risk than the team mechanics, after all we are usually first on the scene after something has gone wrong with the system and forced the car to pull off......

Shelagh · 25 Jan 2009, 19:41 (Ref:2379077)

Well, all I can say is:
a) thank goodness I don't do F1 any more
b) thank goodness I just flag and don't go anywhere near the cars.

**Woolley** · 25 Jan 2009, 22:50 (Ref:2379215)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stack

we are usually first on the scene after something has gone wrong with the system...

...such as being buried in a tyre wall at high velocity.

Wonder what happens if you put foam on it?

mini1400 · 27 Jan 2009, 19:58 (Ref:2380926)

from http://fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pre...f1_tech09.aspx

Some people have raised some concerns about safety with KERS. What has been done, as far as the FIA is concerned, to make sure the system won’t cause any problems?
CW: “Through the Technical Working Group, we set up a KERS Safety Working Group chaired by BMW. They‘ve met quite a few times and they’ve come up with a long list of suggestions, parts of which have already become regulations, and some of which will form the basis of a comprehensive document we’ll circulate to all circuits and tracks hosting a grand prix.

The teams are taking this very responsibly for their own safety, of course. They’re also looking at how the marshals will respond to broken-down cars. There will be things like the KERS status warning light that will be on all cars. Marshals are going to be educated by the documentation we’ll provide.
Also, the systems themselves should be safe. If there’s a risk, it should be clear to a marshal who walks up to the car. He should approach the vehicle, look at the KERS status light and, if it is in the wrong state, he shouldn’t touch the car. Also, people working on the track are being briefed about how to pick up parts, which will be clearly identified by colour coding. If they potentially contain high voltage, they have to know how to move them. They will also wear gloves, which are good for a thousand volts.

adstubbs · 28 Jan 2009, 13:09 (Ref:2381391)

Lots of 'should' in the statement from Charlie Whiting - replacing them with 'will' would make me more comfortable, i.e. the systems themselves will be safe, if there's a risk it will be clear to a marshal. Status light is a nice idea, assuming of course that the light survives the accident that has required the marshal to attend to the car, and that said light is stil visible.

Will the 1,000 volt proof gloves he mentions be provided by the FIA or the teams, or should we start seeking sponsorship from B&Q?

**Woolley** · 28 Jan 2009, 13:45 (Ref:2381420)

Doesn't seem to cover the possibility that the car is working because it's been stuffed. The warning light could be in the wrong state because it's smashed to bits and 100ft from the car, or the whole thing is upside down and you can't see it. I wouldn't like to be the one making the decision whether to approach the unconcious driver who's car might be more live than he is. Scary.

Doesn't quite fit with the FIAs view of marshals that you can drag anyone off the street to do the job.

mini1400 · 28 Jan 2009, 15:50 (Ref:2381480)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woolley

Doesn't seem to cover the possibility that the car is working because it's been stuffed. The warning light could be in the wrong state because it's smashed to bits and 100ft from the car, or the whole thing is upside down and you can't see it. I wouldn't like to be the one making the decision whether to approach the unconcious driver who's car might be more live than he is. Scary.

Doesn't quite fit with the FIAs view of marshals that you can drag anyone off the street to do the job.

Bit like the fiasco with the crash lights last year... if they were pale blue then medical assistence was required, if bright blue then not (or was it the other way round?!) Why not if ON then seak help if OFF then all ok???

Justin Moran · 28 Jan 2009, 16:05 (Ref:2381486)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mini1400

Bit like the fiasco with the crash lights last year... if they were pale blue then medical assistence was required, if bright blue then not (or was it the other way round?!) Why not if ON then seak help if OFF then all ok???

That word says it all really.

BeeJ · 28 Jan 2009, 16:14 (Ref:2381494)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mini1400

Bit like the fiasco with the crash lights last year... if they were pale blue then medical assistence was required, if bright blue then not (or was it the other way round?!) Why not if ON then seak help if OFF then all ok???

Surley as a failsafe it would need to be the other way around. On if everything is OK and OFF if a problem. If the crash was big enough to break the light it would be better if medical assistance was called. I think that it is why the light it is currently to levels of brightness so you know the light is actually working.

mini1400 · 28 Jan 2009, 16:28 (Ref:2381503)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeeJ

Surley as a failsafe it would need to be the other way around. On if everything is OK and OFF if a problem. If the crash was big enough to break the light it would be better if medical assistance was called. I think that it is why the light it is currently to levels of brightness so you know the light is actually working.

Yep, good idea... the other option is red / green....

alimcb · 28 Jan 2009, 21:27 (Ref:2381682)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeeJ

Surley as a failsafe it would need to be the other way around. On if everything is OK and OFF if a problem.

I agree, but it is essential that everyone who might need to approach a KERS F1 car knows exactly where to look for this warning light.

Also, not every car will necessarily be running KERS, so will the non-KERS cars have dummy lights or are we just expected to remember in the heat of the moment which cars are running KERS?

Issuing special instructions might be OK for the 2009 F1 events, but with KERS creeping into Le Mans and other endurance racing, the FIA need to think about a more universal solution. Something along the lines of the orange disc for methanol, but with a status light integrated into the symbol so we know where to look for it.

ss_collins · 28 Jan 2009, 22:37 (Ref:2381715)

Bear in mind not all the systems are the same - some are not electrical at all, others have flywheels and electricity. Its really dodgy ground and there is no agreement on whether its safe or not.

BeeJ · 30 Jan 2009, 10:18 (Ref:2382569)

Quote:

Originally Posted by alimcb

I agree, but it is essential that everyone who might need to approach a KERS F1 car knows exactly where to look for this warning light.

Just like we have to know where to find the crash light and neutral button. One of the incident marshals in the post I was on last year had a document showing where these were on each car and I was surprised we had all not been issued one at sign on, I would love to know where he got it from.

Nighthawk · 30 Jan 2009, 10:48 (Ref:2382588)

Now that Document has been about for a number of years if im not wrong.
I got one 3 years ago...
dont remember where it came from...

BeeJ · 30 Jan 2009, 11:05 (Ref:2382597)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nighthawk

Now that Document has been about for a number of years if im not wrong.
I got one 3 years ago...
dont remember where it came from...

So likely to be out of date.

Dave Brand · 30 Jan 2009, 11:41 (Ref:2382606)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nighthawk

dont remember where it came from...

This one?

http://www.marshalspost.com/display_...?article_id=24

BeeJ · 30 Jan 2009, 11:46 (Ref:2382614)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

This one?

http://www.marshalspost.com/display_...?article_id=24

Yes that was the one. 2004 so well out of date. This is the sort of document we should be given at sign on or even sent with the final instructions to give us time to digest.

**Woolley** · 30 Jan 2009, 13:42 (Ref:2382668)

With all this talk of lights and notices to look for, may we remind the FIA of incidents such as Villeneuve at Eau Rouge (not much car to look at) or Kovalainon at Barcelona (buried under tyre wall). The best way to asses what is required is for an experienced person at the scene to evaluate the driver and his predicament. To do that, we need to be able to approach the vehicle properly and safely, and at the moment they can't - aren't even attempting to - advise on that.

We haven't even begun to think of the possiblility of a driver in a carbon car being electrocuted by a KERS system failure as the cause of the initial incident. A surprising number of fisherman suffer death or injury due to the interface of carbon rods and electrical supply cables, so why not sit him in a carbon chair with a good earthing system and see what happens then?

Lord Summerisle · 30 Jan 2009, 14:22 (Ref:2382688)

Quote:

Originally Posted by adstubbs

Will the 1,000 volt proof gloves he mentions be provided by the FIA or the teams, or should we start seeking sponsorship from B&Q?

at £20+ a set of Class 0 (1000v) gauntlets i hope the FIA provide them

Not to mention - which do you go to the car wearing? your leather welders gautlets - protection against heat/sharp bits, or your rubber gloves, protect against electrocution....hmmm.

I think i'll stick to waving flags at club meetings thanks...

Nighthawk · 30 Jan 2009, 15:05 (Ref:2382704)

I.ve asked all these questions, And from what i can gather both the BMMC and MSA are looking into the best way to deal with them....including training.

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