Will we see a 12th team in 2003?

[Yoong Montoya]

How would you like to see 12 teams in F1 next season? And if so, who do you think the 12th team will be?

[DNQ]

I would like to see 12 teams.
But I almost certainly won't

[Speedworx]

I don't think we will see 12 teams in 2003. Its more liekly 2004, as its getting late to have anything ready for 2003.

[Mania]

I'd love to see Audi in the mix for 2003 but I doubt whether it'll happen.

[Markules]

By the sounds of it, perhaps we should be more worried if we have 11 teams on the grid next season...

I think there was speculation a while back that Red Bull were looking to enter F1 with their own team. Seeing as they sponsor the Abt TT-Rs in the DTM, how about an Audi-powered Red Bull car?

[EERO]

Originally posted by Markules
By the sounds of it, perhaps we should be more worried if we have 11 teams on the grid next season...

Jaguar seems safe for now, but both Arrows and Jordan are in potential financial Trouble and BAR isn't looking too healthy either.

[Lee Janotta]

It won't happen next year yet, but maybe that open entry will entice VAG or General Motors.

It's shameful that the world's biggest auto manufacturer isn't in F1 _or_ WRC.

[Muzza]

The limitation of number of team entries was one of the most shameless things Formula 1 has ever done.

Cosa Nostra could not do better.

This was the final drop that made me leave Formula 1 aside.

[racer69]

I think that if GM or VAG were going to enter at any stge in the future it would have been announced by now. Toyota announced they were joining in '99 and their first race wasn't till this year, so it shows how long it takes to get ready. I would like to see another team next year, definatly, although i have no clue to who it might be, although i really hope that somehow Phoenix are able to join, that way we can see 12 teams this year.

[Valve Bounce]

Well, it certainly won't be from the smelly Team Phart

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

[f1manoz]

12 teams would be great. We should have had it this year, but with the unfortunate demise of Prost, we were once again left with eleven.

However, current economic problems have forced quite a few teams to tighten the purse strings, and IMO thing will get worse before they get better. There are a couple of teams on the grid who may face certain hardships within the next year.

Also, there are no plans from any of the other global manufacturers in joining the F1 circus so it will be a couple of years before the grid is filled.

But if manufacturer interest increased substantially, then Bernie should lift that ridiculous clause stating only 12 teams are allowed. Frankly, I find that illegal in every sense of sport.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by f1manoz


But if manufacturer interest increased substantially, then Bernie should lift that ridiculous clause stating only 12 teams are allowed. Frankly, I find that illegal in every sense of sport.

as much as i would like to see more teams in F1, if what bernie is doing is illegal, then surely, every sporting assossiation around the world that limits the ammount of teams in leagues is breaking the law?

[Red]

Well, since it is already difficult to gather 12 teams together I wonder how lifting that rule might help. Anyway, it's NOT Bernie's idea. The teams decided that way.

PS: What law does it break anyway?

[f1manoz]

Well, perhaps illegal is the wrong word to use in that case. Unfair perhaps? Unsportsmanlike not to let someone have a crack at glory?

[Mr V]

o yes..........i'll agree with you 100% there F1manoz!!

[Red]

Well, the 12th spot on the grid is for grabs. Other than Ph oh ok, Phoenix (and I seriously doubt that they're really interested in a glorious path in Formula 1) is anyone else unfairly blocked?

[Nicholas]

I'm quite happy as it is. With twelve teams it'll only mean that teams disappear quicker. If Prost was by some extraordinary luck still around then they'd probably be dicing with Jordan for 11th and that would still mean no travel benefit. There may be more racing but that would be at the cost of the smaller teams who would have even less points and money.

[Super Tourer]

Don't know about 12, there might be 10.....

[Glen]

Frequently Bernie and Max are criticised for arranging things in a certain way - when in fact the rule (whatever rule, in this case no. of teams) is down to the teams. If they coud somehow re-structure the payments to reward the lower teams I think it would be a good thing. perhaps there should be a Premiership championship under the current regs, and another with much less expensive requirements - all run in the same race.

[Muzza]

Folks,

I see some of you missing the point here.

Of course the teams agreed with the limitation of the number of entries. The lesser the players, the higher the intrinsic market value of each one. This is basic Economics.

That's how any cartel operates - by controlling who can and who cannot.

With the limitation of number of entries the value of each team exploded, as expected. Voila, instant return! Now, if someone wants to get into F-1 he/she has to pay a fortune for the slot.

The comparison by mr. v between F-1 and other sports regarding the limitation of number of teams/clubs does not proceed (well, it proceeds in the US, where they are symptomatically called "franchises"...). In football (soccer) or other sports you can come up the ranks and be promoted if you are good enough. Or be relegated if you are not.

I find contradictory (and rather disturbing) that some of you claim for a more competitive, less processional F-1 and then on the other hand find acceptable a reduction in the number of teams. The best modern F-1 years were 1988-1991, when the number or cars when sky high, and we even got pre-qualification on Friday mornings.

Those were times when a Minardi got a pole position, when an AGS fought for a podium finish, when Onyx designed a beautifully-conceived car, when Senna and Prost fought for the championship to the end, Mansell driving very well too, dog fights throughout the races for all positions...

Muzza

[Markules]

The only problem with lifting the ban on having more teams than 12 is that the money in F1 is concentrated in 2-4 teams at any one time. The sponsors will still want their names on the top cars, understandably, and I doubt much will change that.

This in turn means that the smaller teams will find the money available to them is a lot more spread out, so less R&D time, plus all those engines will have to come from somewhere or other. Without some form of budget or technological limitations, we'd be back to the days where small teams are running two year old ford customer units in the back of underdeveloped chasises with a couple hopeless rent-a-drivers trying to scrape onto the back of the grid for the season or two they're in the sport.

Perhaps if they found a way of limiting the costs of F1 and were able to abolish the 107% rule, yeah, maybe then, but if you look back at how bad teams like Pacific and Forti faired, you know it wouldn't be good for the sport.

[The Red BARon]

Originally posted by Muzza
The limitation of number of team entries was one of the most shameless things Formula 1 has ever done.

Cosa Nostra could not do better.

I agree entirely - but I think we should worry about actually filling 12 places before we complain about there being a limit!

Bernie would surely allow it too. If demand outstrips supply (which presently it doesn't), nobody's franchie as a team will be financially devalued and 13 or 14 might be allowed in.

Sigh, to think of prequalifying in the 80s for the size of th field - was it 30 or 32 cars at one point before the bubble burst?

[The Red BARon]

Originally posted by Markules
The only problem with lifting the ban on having more teams than 12 is that the money in F1 is concentrated in 2-4 teams at any one time. The sponsors will still want their names on the top cars, understandably, and I doubt much will change that.

No.If that were true there would never have been more than 8 cars on a grid since the 1960s. F1 is expanding into new areas (there will within 5 yrs IMO be grands prix in Russia, middle east, CHina and Korea. These are new markets with new corporations which are either not sponsoring anything, or are sponsoring othr sports which F1 can win.

So there could quite conceivably be enough money to go around and happily market the products of 13 or more teams.

As I said in my previous post the value of an F1 franchise depends on demand and supply. There could be 100 teams an yet if there were 101 people who wanted to take part their value would hold.

[Valve Bounce]

The way things are going with several teams financially, I seriously doubt if we will see 12 teams in teh near future - at least two more teams are in financial straits. Unless all teams have access to works engines in teh future, then I am afraid the introduction of more teams is simply an exercise for those calculating the 107% time for quals.

Valve[img]http://www.**************************/smilies/bouncy.gif[/img]

[Red]

Originally posted by Muzza
[...]Now, if someone wants to get into F-1 he/she has to pay a fortune for the slot.[...]

That's innacurate. They indeed have to make a deposit, but only to show that they're able to sustain their enterprise. The money will be refunded (I believe with the interest too) as the season goes on. What they have to do indeed is either to wait an opening or to buy an existing team, as BAR did with Tyrell.