FIA GT ACO vs. FIA (again)

BSchneiderFan · 10 Apr 2003, 15:38 (Ref:565204)

And so the story begins again. Stephane Ratel says that the 2004 FIA Sports Car Championship will be a mini-series of maybe four races each of about four hours (shades of 1994 BPR, anyone?). At the same time, the ACO announces that they will set up a "Le Mans Tournament" for 2004, comprising, wait for it, maybe four races each of about four hours... The differences, of course, is that M. Ratel's vision is of prototype-only races, while the ACO want everything from LMP900 to GT cars. M. Ratel claims that to include GTS and GT cars (or GT and N-GT, in FIA-speak) would damage the FIA GT Championship.

Now, apart from demonstrating that we have too f***ing many sports car championships, it seems to me that M. Ratel is missing a critical point; the forthcoming Estoril SCC round has, what, thirteen confirmed entries? Unless something drastic (by which I mean sensible) is done to bring the FIA and the ACO together in terms of regulations, then the field for M. Ratel's 2004 series will be so small that it won't be worthwhile. Besides, will FIA GT entrants really not want to add a few more races to their 2004 programmes (especially longer races, where harder-up teams can add paying third drivers)?

So my solution, and you can all tell me what you think, is for the FIA and ACO jointly to promote and run a series of long-distance races for all the Le Mans categories, and to the ACO's rules. Is it a coincidence that the FIA Sports Car Championship can barely scrape together a dozen entrants, and Le Mans is oversubscribed? I submit that it is not. I hope that M. Ratel is the man who can force the FIA to swallow their pride, and work with the ACO, for the good, indeed for the survival, or prototype racing in Europe.

Sorry for the rant.

**Aysedasi** · 10 Apr 2003, 15:41 (Ref:565205)

Agreed. I can understand why M. Ratel is worried. Particularly bearing in mind that success in the ACO's tournament is likely to bring with it certain rewards for future year's LM 24 Hours......

Mal · 10 Apr 2003, 17:02 (Ref:565281)

M Ratel has to realise that LM is the centre attraction for all sports car racing and in particular for the manufacturers and therefore the best way to success is to run a series around LM. Sooner or later they hopefully will swallow their pride and stop acting like children.

rdjones · 10 Apr 2003, 18:32 (Ref:565390)

Why can M Ratel sit down with the ACO and come with a European sportscar championship for Protypes and GT's. Which can run along side the FIA GT Championship. At the end of the day the new Le Mans Championship is only going to have 4 or 5 rounds, and as long as they do not clash with the FIA rounds then I can not see a problem.

BSchneiderFan · 10 Apr 2003, 19:17 (Ref:565422)

I'm glad to see I'm not alone here. I think the majority of GT teams - Lister, BMS, Force One, JMB, Freisinger, TMC - would happily contest the 2004 FIA GT series as well as a "Le Mans Tournament" - all the ACO and FIA need to do is ensure there are no clashing dates. So, M. Ratel..?

Tim Northcutt · 10 Apr 2003, 20:59 (Ref:565559)

Many of us have been saying this all along...in many different threads
as part of a wide variety of subjects...

The fact that the FIA is marching to their own drummer is utter stupidity....

I would think the the "Le Mans Tournament" would want to be sure that their dates do not clash with either FIA or ALMS schedules next year(although we shouldn't have to worry about the latter since they are linked anyway) so that the "Tournament" fields are the best cars from all series...like Le Mans....
But the FIA, as always, seems to be on another planet while the rest of auto racing lives in "The Real World...""

Question:

I thought the FIA was at the "Summit" in Paris...am I incorrect on that one?

If not, why not?

If they were, but didn't show up, why didn't they?

If they did attend, why would this kind of situation that began the thread pop up?

Since the FIA can't even get their act together on listing this weekend's race on ther website, I would hope that the ACO would just take the bull by the horns, open the door for M. Ratel for a "sit-down" and get everybody on the same page....

A.D.K. · 11 Apr 2003, 00:24 (Ref:565718)

Yes, I've always wonder why the ALMS, ACO, and the FIA can't get together to have unified world series with their rules package.
Having the ALMS over seeing the racing in N. America and the FIA?ACO over Europe and the rest of world.
Both could have their separate series championship and then bring back the old World Sports Car Championship has the world title for sports cars.
And those being made up of the classic enduro races. Like 12hrs of Sebring, 6hrs of Mexico (if ALMS and the promotors can work thing's out for next year), 24hrs of Le Mans, an old one 1000km of Monza, a race at Suzuka, and a race in in Australia.
Point's gathered at these races count to the world championship.
Then add too that the normal sprint races the ALMS and FIA/ACO for the national championship N. America and Europe/World and the point's awarded there.
The engine formula for the prototypes would be (if I was running thing's) a NA 3litre V-10 motor running to anywhere from 10,000-12,000 rpm's and producing 650-700 hp with restrictors or not with the car shape being either a closed cockpit (personal choice) or open or both.
Depending how well thing's could/can be policed in keep thing's some what equal basically using a further de-tuned version of the CART/F1 motor that is being rumored about on the meesage boards and in the motorsport press.
I don't know why I'm writing my wild ideal down here. Wouldn't the ALMS,ACO, and FIA working together for a common Sports Car Series be a sign of the coming apocalypse?

dretceterini · 11 Apr 2003, 02:02 (Ref:565773)

The ACO, ALMS, and FIA coming to some sort of agreement? More likely all of these series fold and G/A takes over with it's AMC Pacer based DSP series

bcobbus · 11 Apr 2003, 06:55 (Ref:565881)

I dream of a day when a legitimate World Sportscar Championship will resume once again. THe FIA and the ACO really need to get their **** together, and put ego's asside. Could you imagine seeing the LMP900's racing in the likes of: Le Mans 24hours, Spa 1000k, Monza 1000K, Sebring 12hours, Daytona 24hours etc....

Edited for autocensor avoidance!!

bcobbus · 11 Apr 2003, 06:55 (Ref:565882)

Yes I know that Daytona falls under Grand AM, and Sebring under ALMS.

**Aysedasi** · 11 Apr 2003, 07:06 (Ref:565893)

Quote:

Originally posted by bcobbus
I dream of a day when a legitimate World Sportscar Championship will resume once again. I]

You and me both, bcobbus!

Tim Northcutt · 11 Apr 2003, 13:51 (Ref:566321)

There is only one way to create a unified set-up for endurance racing...

ACO must take the lead to get everyone into the same room and dictate...yes, DICTATE...the direction that the sport should go, with input from ALMS and FIA concerns as well as the manufacturers...

I thought that this was the whole point of the "Paris Summit"...

After all, they are the biggest and most visible player in the game...it is where the sponsors ultimately want their names to be seen on a world-wide stage...they can, and must, call the shots for this to work....

One note about the races in all parts of the globe....

The travel costs and logisitics are the main reason why Formula One is so expensive...many teams just won't have the bucks to make 3 or more trips to all parts of the globe...Example: an ALMS team would have to go to Le Mans, then back a second time to Europe for Monza, then to Japan for a race at Suzuka or Montegi....and possibly back again to Europe (unless Sebring or Petit or both become part of the mix)....

and if Sebring, Petit and/or a 6 hrs in Mexico (pick two of the three) are in the "tournament," European teams face the hefty travel bills for two separate trips to North America plus a Japan trip...I don't see the best Euro tteams like Racing for Holland, Pescarolo, etc., having that kind of sponsor money to get it done...

Some VERY BIG global corporations would have to be on-board for this, with a special Le Mans visibility package being a MUST for them to to it...

The "Tournament" idea might have to be done as part of a joint sponsorship deal with some very big multi-national corporations involved as "official suppliers" for the tourney (i.e. "Exxon is the 'Official Fuel" of the LM tourney, etc.) who, as part of their exclusive deal with the ACO, helps with travel and logistics costs for the teams....

It is the only way it will happen

veeten · 11 Apr 2003, 14:34 (Ref:566359)

But the one man, and problem, central to all this is Stephane Ratel. Remember, he was instrumental to the success of BPR Championship before they were overtaken by events, subsequent design interpretations by other manufacturers, and the morphing into GT-1 for ACO/LeMans purposes.

Now, with the GT Championship having recent success, he may have some trepidation about having to deal with the ACO once again. What the "LeMans Tournament" means to him is the inevitable amount of present teams choosing to leave the series on a more extended basis, especially the more promenent ones. What would happen if the ACO gets a better Broadcasting contract, or entices better sponsors for the new series? That would leave the FIA GT championship bereft of major competition, even if there was sufficient numbers for replacement on the grid.

Stephane doesn't want a replay of the same situation in North America between ALMS & Grand Am.

Tim Northcutt · 11 Apr 2003, 15:55 (Ref:566454)

As noted in all of the discussion of this topic in various threads...

You're right on the money, Veeten...

A Note:

On the day that my proposed solutions become a reality, everybody better go to Confession or Repent their Sins...

because it will be a sure sign that the Apocalypse is upon us...

Chofar · 11 Apr 2003, 20:16 (Ref:566655)

I agree with your propositions but the ACO will never be able to dictate a solution. As ironically stated by Ratel, ACO is only a regional club, with regional competence and affiliated to FFSA and FIA. How long could the tracks involved in the ACO series could survived if banned from all FIA series ? It will be an economic war and i'm not sure the ACO can win it. Voice of reason is one serie, 6 to 8 races around the world and so son, call it World Championship of Endurance and roll on, with a mix of protos and GT's but it's not in the way of happening. 13 protos in FIA against 40 Gt's seems that FIA can live without protos, but the ACO can not live without GT's so Ratel will be the man to follow, unfortunately.

Tim Northcutt · 11 Apr 2003, 20:41 (Ref:566679)

And that is exactly what everyone thought when USAC was the sanctioning body, but the Indy 500 was the premiere race in their Champ Car series....

Money talks and bull**** walks...and the sponsors ultimately would decide which side (and which teams) their sponsorship dollars would go toward....

All ACO would have to do is reciprocate by banning FIA-affiliated racers....there are sanctioning bodies all around the planet that would love to be associated with the ACO and Le Mans....

How long would Racing For Holland, Pescarolo, etc., stay with FIA (who can't even put their website together in time for a race this weekend)if that were the case????

Le Mans has the prestige and the tradition....the FIA would not win that war....

And if the FIA remained stubborn and stupid, there are plenty of GTS and GT teams from America that would love to run at Le Mans....they would still get their entries....

How many of them would stay in the FIA, knowing

Chofar · 11 Apr 2003, 20:46 (Ref:566689)

If only...

But it's FIA that homologates the ACO track which is still very anachronic in those days...

Tim Northcutt · 11 Apr 2003, 22:17 (Ref:566814)

I am certain that other racing governing bodies would gladly sanction Le Mans if there was an FIA-ACO feud as described above...

And perpetual idiocy tends to breed other sanctioning bodies forming to administer racing as well...

The FIA seems to have a monopoly on perpetual idiocy these days...

After all, it took them 5 days to declare Fisichella and Jordan the winner of the Brazilian Grand Prix and to reverse their incredibly stupid "red flag" rule that reverts to the leader two laps prior to the stoppage...

At least they had the common sense to realize how ridiculous that decision, and rule actually was...

I will at least give them credit for that...

pirenzo · 11 Apr 2003, 22:37 (Ref:566831)

Quote:

Originally posted by bcobbus
I dream of a day when a legitimate World Sportscar Championship will resume once again. THe FIA and the ACO really need to get their **** together, and put ego's asside. Could you imagine seeing the LMP900's racing in the likes of: Le Mans 24hours, Spa 1000k, Monza 1000K, Sebring 12hours, Daytona 24hours etc....

Edited for autocensor avoidance!![oh c'mon!, sometimes it helps demostrate a point (sorry )]

Don't we all? Maybe that's the idea behind LMtournament? If you can draw entries from all series, as at LM, then you basically have a WSC.

Tim Northcutt · 12 Apr 2003, 02:59 (Ref:566952)

Something tells me that the FIA will schedule some conflicting dates, just to muck up the works.....big egos and small minds to not amke for a good mix...

But otherwise, I would love to see it happen, Pirenzo...as would we alll...

(Gee....can you feel my affection for the FIA, or what....

Guess I'm still fuming over the stupid website that is "under Construction" two days before they race at Estoril

MaxSport · 12 Apr 2003, 10:00 (Ref:567092)

I think you will end up seeing 4 or 5 LM Tournement races as well as the FIA GT but no FIA SCC in '04. Most of the GTs will want to compete in both the FIA and ACO events.

There is no reason for Ratel to object to common rules for GT's and cooperation with schedules and I don't think he will from what I have heard.

The idea of a handful of big enduros for LMPs and GTs as well as a N. American GT Series is what I thought the ALMS should be as far back as '98 when Panoz announced the series. I knew that there were not the resources in American sportscars for a full series of 10 or 12 mini LM events and even Panoz himself knows that now.

With small LMP fields for most races, except the LM24,Sebring (and Sebring 2000 didn't draw but 8 LMPs) and PLM this would seem to be a good formula that can be viable for the long term over here and in Europe as well.

The only thing I would add is make the LMP cars have smaller gas tanks so that the GTS cars could have a shot to win overall. Then if only 7 or 8 LMP cars show up the GTS Maserati and Zondas etc. would make the list of potential winners that much larger.

KM

veeten · 12 Apr 2003, 16:21 (Ref:567321)

In short, have what happened in Daytona 2000 &2001 because of problems for the Dyson WSCs, become the rule for other races.

If this was such a great plan, then why didn't Grand Am utilize this prior to '99, and get the jump upon everyone. Instead, only recently have they pratically legislated the SRPs right out of existance. The only way for any SRP-2 to possibly win a race is for the DPs to either have major problems or be so removed in the overall lap count as they are considerably removed from contention. See Daytona 24 '03 for details...

Sorry Max, artificial equality in motorsport only works in ladder series, not in major series or events.

Tim Northcutt · 14 Apr 2003, 13:26 (Ref:569043)

I'm all for the LM Tournamnet format, and agree that the FIA-SCC might just go completely away...

My only concern is the added budget strain for North American teams making 2-4 trips to Europe to race, and how that will impact the number of teams that will ultimately compete...

paulzinho · 14 Apr 2003, 16:46 (Ref:569184)

If the FIA didn't sanction Le Mans would I get my Mulsanne STRAIGHT back?

The organisers are being pathetic, all I (dunno about the rest of you) want is a championship like we had in the 80's with great looking cars on fantastic circuits (Though that won't happen again since they're all being bloody sanitised). None of this ALMS rubbish, it needs to be a global championship on the best of the best circuits. I'm talking Brands Hatch, Spa, Monza, Suzuka (Or Fuji before Tilke mashes it up!), etc...

But I'm dreaming and I'm also off to dig out the videos I've got of Sportscars when they actually meant something to me in terms of a championship. Today is just a load of bull and to be honest if it wasn't for Le Mans I would have very little interest these days. Just goes to show that tradition still means something.

Lee Janotta · 14 Apr 2003, 17:07 (Ref:569210)

The fact is, the FIA and ACO both have their heads wedged firmly up their rears. The ACO can't stick to a damn formula long enough for it to really be successful, while the FIA... Lord knows what their problem is, but they can't do a damn thing right, from a chicane fetish to insisting on LMP750... To perpetually making sports cars and GTs play second fiddle to open wheelers.