2011 Bathurst 12 Hour

[B24]

I know some people prefer the previous 12hr series which basically no one bother to watch for the last few years, but give it a break so the GT cars can have a go at drawing the crowds and putting on a show.
Check the video link of the 24hr I provided. You will clearly see there were more people at that event than two years of the 12hr production event. Chances are that will happen again.
As for Martin Short, chances are he and his possy of GT competitors could show up for a run as will some of the Nur24hr teams. They do know about it and its on many teams radars.
If people think this will be a flop they should get over it and embrace the event like many are already doing..

And SS, I loaded some more footage of the Oran Park 1hr from last year to my youtube site. You car is part of it, as is the Lotus guys. SS, your a madman..

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by B24

I know some people prefer the previous 12hr series which basically no one bother to watch for the last few years, but give it a break so the GT cars can have a go at drawing the crowds and putting on a show.
If people think this will be a flop they should get over it and embrace the event like many are already doing..
..

Sorry B24. I guess some of us are sounding like we are knocking the GT race. I am in fact looking forward to it, but I am mourning the lost opportunity to revive what us aged, senile and sentimental types will always think of as "proper" Bathurst racing.
Personaly I think it would be fantastic to have both a genuine Showroom Showdown, aimed at the cars that are strong in the local market, and another race based on Nring24 type rules open to International competition. My objection to the current format is that it doesn't really fit either concept.
The problem with the Showroom Showdown concept started when the race started to go International and cars not freely or widely available locally became eligible and the dominant runners. Fixing that problem has never been part of the B24 or B12 philosophy which has been the limiting factor into developing manufacturer, importer, dealer and eventualy public interest in the events.
The elephant in the room of course is V8SC which has moved away from the motor industry (and even most of motorsport) to become a sort of gladiatorial, tribal and populus showbiz event that just happens to be run on 4 wheels.
But then I guess my age is showing.
I am encouraged by the increasing number of Series Prod. events being added to the calendar, but none of them are really have the sort of regs that closely reflect the market.
The real worry for the sport is what happens iof V8SC implodes? What will replace it as the big attraction for the general public? How will the sport justify itself in an era of increasingly influential eco warrior influence?

[bluesport]

I am hoping the GT's will eventually get big enough to have their own event and then maybe there can be a 12hr for GTs and another for production cars.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Sorry B24. I guess some of us are sounding like we are knocking the GT race. I am in fact looking forward to it, but I am mourning the lost opportunity to revive what us aged, senile and sentimental types will always think of as "proper" Bathurst racing.
Personaly I think it would be fantastic to have both a genuine Showroom Showdown, aimed at the cars that are strong in the local market, and another race based on Nring24 type rules open to International competition. My objection to the current format is that it doesn't really fit either concept.
The problem with the Showroom Showdown concept started when the race started to go International and cars not freely or widely available locally became eligible and the dominant runners. Fixing that problem has never been part of the B24 or B12 philosophy which has been the limiting factor into developing manufacturer, importer, dealer and eventualy public interest in the events.
The elephant in the room of course is V8SC which has moved away from the motor industry (and even most of motorsport) to become a sort of gladiatorial, tribal and populus showbiz event that just happens to be run on 4 wheels.
But then I guess my age is showing.

Having watched in recent years a lot of old footage from the 1960's to 1980's and a lot of the showroom stock or related type racing for me it's dull and unspectacular for a top tier series. Watching a Celica or Alfa go around the mountain may have been top drawer back in the day but now it's like getting hit with a tranquilizer dart.

If folks are talking about running 6 cyl Falcons and Commodores as the top draw at the 12 hour, well that might appeal to drivers at the entry or club level or to a select few of motor racing fans, but as entertainment and a spectacle(if I have to sit trackside which these days I'm a self absorbed driver and don't really want to watch others drive as much) I think it's not a good idea.

I don't really mind and actually like some parts of the real showroom cars remaining involved in a touring car series, but 6 cyl falcons off the dealer lots with roll cages just doesn't cut the mustard.

Now what would be interesting AND relevant would be to run showroom stock cars with safety mods in another Round Australia trial. And probably that's why Targa's are appealing to me as well.

Running those type of cars on the race track just doesn't do it for me. On the road in a Targa or rally yes. Race track, no.

[Oldtony]

Remember Moutainstar, looking at old footage of 60's to 80's you are as muich being influenced by the age of the TV technology as the age and technology of the cars and racing. One thing that the V8SC era has produced is a huge improvement in getting multiple shots, angles and picture quality onto the TV screen. believe me if you were actually on the Mountain watching Cortina GT's, Mini Coopers, Studie Larks, GT Falcons, Monaros, XU1 and A9X Toranas etc the racing was exciting.
The whole point about it was that fans, and TV viewers could watch the top model of the car they drove, or could envision themselves driving, being placed under the sort of pressure test that proved their judgement in selecting the car.
That involvement by fans disappeared with Sierras and Godzillas. It certainly wasn't replaced by the Falden sports sedans.

[Morris Dancer]

You guys just don't seem to understand the fundamentals of attracting spectators to motor racing in Australia.

If you want Aussie race fans to turn up in decent numbers - as opposed to the handful who turn up to any meeting that doesn't have V8 Supercars - then you have to give them something they can relate to.

So forget about anything that either isn't sold here in reasonable numbers or isn't a Commodore or Falcon.

My proposal offers something for showroom shoppers (ie. the all-in race) and the suburban petrolheads (the Commodore SS/Falcon XR6 Turbo race).

Anything else will leave the fences bare, as we'll see at the next 12-hour.

[KSM86]

Originally Posted by B24

I know some people prefer the previous 12hr series which basically no one bother to watch for the last few years, but give it a break so the GT cars can have a go at drawing the crowds and putting on a show.
Check the video link of the 24hr I provided. You will clearly see there were more people at that event than two years of the 12hr production event. Chances are that will happen again.
As for Martin Short, chances are he and his possy of GT competitors could show up for a run as will some of the Nur24hr teams. They do know about it and its on many teams radars.
If people think this will be a flop they should get over it and embrace the event like many are already doing..

And SS, I loaded some more footage of the Oran Park 1hr from last year to my youtube site. You car is part of it, as is the Lotus guys. SS, your a madman..

Question being was did they all show up to see porsches and ferraris racing or was it for the Monaro??

I reckon for this race to really survive they need to go the same way as the nur24hr event!

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

You guys just don't seem to understand the fundamentals of attracting spectators to motor racing in Australia.

If you want Aussie race fans to turn up in decent numbers - as opposed to the handful who turn up to any meeting that doesn't have V8 Supercars - then you have to give them something they can relate to.

Or more accurately stage a concert with a well known band involved and include it in the price of entry.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

You guys just don't seem to understand the fundamentals of attracting spectators to motor racing in Australia.

If you want Aussie race fans to turn up in decent numbers - as opposed to the handful who turn up to any meeting that doesn't have V8 Supercars - then you have to give them something they can relate to.

So forget about anything that either isn't sold here in reasonable numbers or isn't a Commodore or Falcon.

My proposal offers something for showroom shoppers (ie. the all-in race) and the suburban petrolheads (the Commodore SS/Falcon XR6 Turbo race).

Anything else will leave the fences bare, as we'll see at the next 12-hour.

My idea included holdens and Falcons (high powered ones) as well as Euros, Japanese, Yanky etc........or are you saying that the locals have to win?

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by bluesport

My idea included holdens and Falcons (high powered ones) as well as Euros, Japanese, Yanky etc........or are you saying that the locals have to win?

Providing you can go down to your local dealer and buy one at a reasonably affordable price.
And regarding the Rock groups, I get the feeling they drag a bigger fan group than the V8s.

[D.R.T.]

Agreed - looking at the v8 rule book these days, I can't see how anyone can relate what they drive on the road to what they race on the track

[Sheep Stations]

Originally Posted by B24

I know some people prefer the previous 12hr series which basically no one bother to watch for the last few years, but give it a break so the GT cars can have a go at drawing the crowds and putting on a show.
Check the video link of the 24hr I provided. You will clearly see there were more people at that event than two years of the 12hr production event. Chances are that will happen again.
As for Martin Short, chances are he and his possy of GT competitors could show up for a run as will some of the Nur24hr teams. They do know about it and its on many teams radars.
If people think this will be a flop they should get over it and embrace the event like many are already doing..

And SS, I loaded some more footage of the Oran Park 1hr from last year to my youtube site. You car is part of it, as is the Lotus guys. SS, your a madman..

I'll put it out there...there will be at least 25 GT cars. Bring it on.

B24, you must be referring to my team-mate at Oran Park. I'm far to mild and precious.

[racer69]

There might be 25 GT cars attending SS, but how many others are going to front to fill the field, or have the Production guys relented abit?

Originally Posted by B24

Check the video link of the 24hr I provided. You will clearly see there were more people at that event than two years of the 12hr production event. Chances are that will happen again.

Your being abit optimistic there i think.

As an attendee at both Bathurst 24hrs, and as someone who desperatly wanted to see it succeed, the crowd in 2002 particularly was paltry, much less than even the 1998 AMP Bathurst 1000. 2003 was better, but hardly the size of crowd to use as evidence to support dumping the production cars.

[Sheep Stations]

Once the further regs are out and the parity issue is settled in the next few days, the fence sitting will be over. Expect 7-10 international entries and the rest local GT's.

The event would only need 35 or so to break even/make a dollar. There will be a few prods breaking ranks from the sooks for their shot at class glory for sure.

[DAVID PATERSON]

The suppoprt programme looks good:

* Group C & Group A Touring Cars (the genuine article, no replicas)
* Group Nb & Nc Historic Touring Cars
* Improved Production Touring Cars
* HQ Holdens
* Formula Vee

A bit of something for every one there and my three favourite classes! Yay

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

You guys just don't seem to understand the fundamentals of attracting spectators to motor racing in Australia.

If you want Aussie race fans to turn up in decent numbers - as opposed to the handful who turn up to any meeting that doesn't have V8 Supercars - then you have to give them something they can relate to.

So forget about anything that either isn't sold here in reasonable numbers or isn't a Commodore or Falcon.

My proposal offers something for showroom shoppers (ie. the all-in race) and the suburban petrolheads (the Commodore SS/Falcon XR6 Turbo race).

Anything else will leave the fences bare, as we'll see at the next 12-hour.

Our big name drivers all punt V8s & they cant drive anything else. Makes promotion marginal.

[Oldtony]

Big name drivers?
Of existing V8SC drivers probably Lowndes and Ingall actually sell product. Winterbottom, Bright, Jason Richards and Winchup have some recognition level but are all less visble in marketing than names from the past like Skaife, Moffat, Johnson, Bowe etc.
The thing about the "Greatest Show on Wheels" is all about the show, and very little about the wheels. The "support" events are earners for the series and time fillers. The real support is the big name entertainment. It is a circus that Barnum and Bailey would be proud of and you have to take your hat of to the ring master for his ability to put a show on which can convince the punters to line the fences, the TV viewers to sit watching, and Governments to pay for it all.
The key to getting any other forn of racing up as a real event is the combination of circuit, manufacturers and TV.
Bathurst is the iconic circuit. The TV stations are looking for big events that have potential to sell advertising in the demographic that watches motor sport. The missing link is the manufacturers. What is the format that would convince Toyota, Hyundai, Mazda, Honda, Mitsubishi, Subaru, VW group, Renault/Nissan etc to enter at factory or importer level?

This is all cluttering up the B12 thread. Should this be discussed in a thread devoted to what the next big series will turn out to be?

[sizzle]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

And regarding the Rock groups, I get the feeling they drag a bigger fan group than the V8s.

And when you count them as attendees ata race meeting the numbers look fantastic.

Sorry got off topic there.

[B24]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Sorry B24. I guess some of us are sounding like we are knocking the GT race. I am in fact looking forward to it, but I am mourning the lost opportunity to revive what us aged, senile and sentimental types will always think of as "proper" Bathurst racing.
Personaly I think it would be fantastic to have both a genuine Showroom Showdown, aimed at the cars that are strong in the local market, and another race based on Nring24 type rules open to International competition. My objection to the current format is that it doesn't really fit either concept.
The problem with the Showroom Showdown concept started when the race started to go International and cars not freely or widely available locally became eligible and the dominant runners. Fixing that problem has never been part of the B24 or B12 philosophy which has been the limiting factor into developing manufacturer, importer, dealer and eventualy public interest in the events.
The elephant in the room of course is V8SC which has moved away from the motor industry (and even most of motorsport) to become a sort of gladiatorial, tribal and populus showbiz event that just happens to be run on 4 wheels.
But then I guess my age is showing.
I am encouraged by the increasing number of Series Prod. events being added to the calendar, but none of them are really have the sort of regs that closely reflect the market.
The real worry for the sport is what happens iof V8SC implodes? What will replace it as the big attraction for the general public? How will the sport justify itself in an era of increasingly influential eco warrior influence?

Tony, as you know I too enjoy the production racing which provide a fantastic race over the 12hrs. In 2011 I will do the same. Enjoy the production car series race again next year but with the twist being that there will be number of teams who will outsmart the GT guys while keeping their direct competitors of their tail. As for future, B12hr this will become the place to go for for people who's first choice is not V8SC or infact their 2nd choice but people will be their.
Look forward to catching up for some red and few movies on Saturday night Tony!

Cheers

[B24]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

You guys just don't seem to understand the fundamentals of attracting spectators to motor racing in Australia.

If you want Aussie race fans to turn up in decent numbers - as opposed to the handful who turn up to any meeting that doesn't have V8 Supercars - then you have to give them something they can relate to.

So forget about anything that either isn't sold here in reasonable numbers or isn't a Commodore or Falcon.

My proposal offers something for showroom shoppers (ie. the all-in race) and the suburban petrolheads (the Commodore SS/Falcon XR6 Turbo race).

Anything else will leave the fences bare, as we'll see at the next 12-hour.

Im not sure if you have been to anything else apart from Holden vs Ford events but they do exist and their is a lot of interest in these events.
H vs F is bread and butter but Im dont really eat much bread and butter any more. Funny enough, the lastest generation of motor enthusiests do either..

The fact is the B12 like the B24 is a true international event which will in time attract international teams for all classes as well international tourists. Thats just the way it is.

No point in arguing this point ( of who and what should be in the 12hr)as it really is peoples personal preference which should not be questioned or judged. V8SC is not better, H vs F is not better, GT is not better, Prod series is not better.
They are options for people to enjoy and make their own decision to be their or not.
So, will you be there?

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

Big name drivers?
Of existing V8SC drivers probably Lowndes and Ingall actually sell product. Winterbottom, Bright, Jason Richards and Winchup have some recognition level but are all less visble in marketing than names from the past like Skaife, Moffat, Johnson, Bowe etc.
The thing about the "Greatest Show on Wheels" is all about the show, and very little about the wheels. The "support" events are earners for the series and time fillers. The real support is the big name entertainment. It is a circus that Barnum and Bailey would be proud of and you have to take your hat of to the ring master for his ability to put a show on which can convince the punters to line the fences, the TV viewers to sit watching, and Governments to pay for it all.
The key to getting any other forn of racing up as a real event is the combination of circuit, manufacturers and TV.
Bathurst is the iconic circuit. The TV stations are looking for big events that have potential to sell advertising in the demographic that watches motor sport. The missing link is the manufacturers. What is the format that would convince Toyota, Hyundai, Mazda, Honda, Mitsubishi, Subaru, VW group, Renault/Nissan etc to enter at factory or importer level?

This is all cluttering up the B12 thread. Should this be discussed in a thread devoted to what the next big series will turn out to be?

Tony, V8 fans dont frequent other forms of motorsport, & if say, pick a number, regular V8 punters were to drive/co drive GTs or sports sedans, Carrera Cup/GT Challenge, Saloon Cars .... more bums on seats would result.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by cavvy

Tony, V8 fans dont frequent other forms of motorsport, & if say, pick a number, regular V8 punters were to drive/co drive GTs or sports sedans, Carrera Cup/GT Challenge, Saloon Cars .... more bums on seats would result.

No argument. But how many V8 fans are there compared to "Event" fans who are there for the circus, the rock groups and the whole showbiz thing. V8 fans are sort of a group in limbo between motorsport fans and showbiz event fans.
Not meant as a criticism of TC or the VESA circus. They are in the entertainment business and the do it very well.
The problem is they leave very little room for real motorsport.
And we really are getting furter off topic seeing as this is a B12 thread.

[B24]

John Bowe is teaming up in a F430 for the 12hr. Great to see JB back in a Ferrari and great to actually see a F430 in a GT race again.
He did state they should slow the GT3 cars down to give his F430 a chance. Maybe they could simply speed up the F430! Better for everyone..

The tyre orders must be submitted by the end of the month so will have a clearer picture of who will be racing in the 12hr but Im sure they will allow some last minute entries.
Was thinking yesterday, it would be great to see MW drive in the 12hr in a GT car. Perhaps when he retires from GP we may yet see this materialise.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by B24

John Bowe is teaming up in a F430 for the 12hr. Great to see JB back in a Ferrari and great to actually see a F430 in a GT race again.

Yeah, fantastic on both counts, we get JB and a Ferrari. Brings back memories of the PHR days...

[kingers]

Hey B24 whats your youtube name so I can see the Oran Park gear... SS was the crazy one at that round I must admit!

Cheers