Audi LMP1 Discussion

[Mal]

I cant help thinking that Audi were caught out a bit and went for a more conservative set up than they could have thinking they had the Pug covered especially following their qualifying woes.

I would expect them to be bang of the pace at Le Mans but it may be closer than many thought.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Mal

I cant help thinking that Audi were caught out a bit and went for a more conservative set up than they could have thinking they had the Pug covered especially following their qualifying woes.

I would expect them to be bang of the pace at Le Mans but it may be closer than many thought.

as I said before, Dr. Ulrich told me before the race that the Peugeots were going to be very fast, so I think the first part of your theory is n=most likely incorrect. The second part I support, and hopefully it will be an epic battle lasting 24 hours.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by henk4

as I said before, Dr. Ulrich told me before the race that the Peugeots were going to be very fast, so I think the first part of your theory is n=most likely incorrect. The second part I support, and hopefully it will be an epic battle lasting 24 hours.

Yes but you have to remember that Audi were 3 seconds slower in the race than they had regularly ran practice and Pug were regularly running as fast and faster than they had throughout practice. Therefore if Audi had dialled some speed out of the car - wisely to not appear too fast - thinking they still had a little in hand they would clearly have thought the Pug would be closer to their pace and therefore 'relatively fast'. Also the fastest time Pug had run all through practice by some margin was in the morning warm up and this unexpected speed may have surprised Dr Ullrich.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Mal

Yes but you have to remember that Audi were 3 seconds slower in the race than they had regularly ran practice and Pug were regularly running as fast and faster than they had throughout practice. Therefore if Audi had dialled some speed out of the car - wisely to not appear too fast - thinking they still had a little in hand they would clearly have thought the Pug would be closer to their pace and therefore 'relatively fast'. Also the fastest time Pug had run all through practice by some margin was in the morning warm up and this unexpected speed may have surprised Dr Ullrich.

If the warm up time would have surprised Dr.. Ulrich, I think there would have been ample to revert to the free practice set-ups, IF, and that is indeed a big IF, Audi had adjusted them after qualifying. I spoke with him about 30 minutes before the start......

[chernaudi]

If Audi didn't keep up with track conditions or went the wrong way with setup, it's not the first time that they effectivly dialed themselves out of contention during a race proper--need I bring up Silverstone '10?

Either that, or Peugeot may've found some pace in the 908s in testing after Le Mans (or at least found something that worked better at Spa), or, Audi may be sandbagging, based on Bentley '03's comments that Audi were noticeably faster in testing.

Maybe the LM test day was a mixed blessing for both Peugeot and Audi--it confirmed that at least on a flyer that the cars are very equal, and Peugeot maybe got some confrimation of their issues and how Audi were doing, and Audi may have the hot LM set up still.

Spa, the same things may apply--Audi have learned that in race trim, there are a few things to work on that don't often show up in private testing (handling in traffic, tire pick up issues, loosening the tollerances on the body panels to change for damage or to adjust the car's suspension/aero trim). Peugeot may've learned that they may've found something that may work at the other ILMC rounds where they may run their LM aero outside of Le Mans, and that they have to work on driver disipline in one of their cars, that they can't lollygag in qualifying, and may have shown Audi something of their pace and how they got it.

Maybe Audi should've entered at least one car at Paul Ricard for testing purposes--granted, it would've dominated the race, but it would've picked up some data that probably would've helped at Spa.

Both have some work to do, but I have noticed a trend in recent years--when a team wins Sebring, they usually don't win LM. In '08, Audi didn't win Sebring, but won LM, then they won Sebring in '09, but lost LM, and didn't enter Sebring in '10, but still won LM.

It seems that losing a race before LM usually means that you'll do well at LM for some reason, when ironically Sebring is a big endurance test for LM.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

If Audi didn't keep up with track conditions or went the wrong way with setup, it's not the first time that they effectivly dialed themselves out of contention during a race proper--need I bring up Silverstone '10?

Either that, or Peugeot may've found some pace in the 908s in testing after Le Mans (or at least found something that worked better at Spa), or, Audi may be sandbagging, based on Bentley '03's comments that Audi were noticeably faster in testing.

Maybe the LM test day was a mixed blessing for both Peugeot and Audi--it confirmed that at least on a flyer that the cars are very equal, and Peugeot maybe got some confrimation of their issues and how Audi were doing, and Audi may have the hot LM set up still.

Spa, the same things may apply--Audi have learned that in race trim, there are a few things to work on that don't often show up in private testing (handling in traffic, tire pick up issues, loosening the tollerances on the body panels to change for damage or to adjust the car's suspension/aero trim). Peugeot may've learned that they may've found something that may work at the other ILMC rounds where they may run their LM aero outside of Le Mans, and that they have to work on driver disipline in one of their cars, that they can't lollygag in qualifying, and may have shown Audi something of their pace and how they got it.

Maybe Audi should've entered at least one car at Paul Ricard for testing purposes--granted, it would've dominated the race, but it would've picked up some data that probably would've helped at Spa.

Both have some work to do, but I have noticed a trend in recent years--when a team wins Sebring, they usually don't win LM. In '08, Audi didn't win Sebring, but won LM, then they won Sebring in '09, but lost LM, and didn't enter Sebring in '10, but still won LM.

It seems that losing a race before LM usually means that you'll do well at LM for some reason, when ironically Sebring is a big endurance test for LM.

12 x "may(be)" (I did not include the 1 x "probably"). That must be a new record.

P.S. I did not read any of your speculation, because with all the sandbagging going on it is impossible to draw any meaningfull conclusions

[GT6]

having watched the audi going around for 6 hours at spa I think I can state that they have a good deal of work to do and also that the car looked less impressive in the flesh, but they have 4 weeks to sort things out and I think we will see an improved car at Le mans

[templer]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

12 x "may(be)" (I did not include the 1 x "probably"). That must be a new record.

P.S. I did not read any of your speculation, because with all the sandbagging going on it is impossible to draw any meaningfull conclusions

Absolutely right. Nobody can really analyze the Spa race or the Le Mans test, cause both works teams will not have shown their full potenial. We can still expect some more. We have seen that Audi has fast car in Le Mans and they are nearer to Peugeot then the years before, while things changed in Spa there Audi was slowier in traffic and was harder to the tyres. We have also seen in Spa that both teams had many minor problems. But both will fully analyze their datas, doing more test work and further improve their cars.

We only will know which one is better after the 24 hours of Le Mans.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by templer

Absolutely right. Nobody can really analyze the Spa race or the Le Mans test, cause both works teams will not have shown their full potenial. We can still expect some more. We have seen that Audi has fast car in Le Mans and they are nearer to Peugeot then the years before, while things changed in Spa there Audi was slowier in traffic and was harder to the tyres. We have also seen in Spa that both teams had many minor problems. But both will fully analyze their datas, doing more test work and further improve their cars.

We only will know which one is better after the 24 hours of Le Mans.

while I think you are fully right about what we have seen,and what we can conclude from it, I do feel that Peugeot only had one big problem, and that was the #9 car. First the crash with RML, than the off during the race and the finally the suspension issue, which should cause the most worries, as obviously it was unrelated to both previous crashes. It might actually be on the only corner that was not rebuild after the thursday crash. Cars 7 and 8 as far as I could observe had not even minor issues, and certainly not during the race.

[chernaudi]

In this PR piece, McNish claims that Audi has the pace, but admits that the car lacked consistancy in race trim:

http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publi...cle_6814.shtml

A result of not running more races before Spa?

[Holt]

The R18 is in my eyes still the favorite to win Lemans

Peugeot has had 2 major issues with their cars already in front of public eyes, the engine replacement at the test day and the suspension failure at Spa. Both of these would equal a deathblow if they happened during the 24 hours.

Audi has only had minor problems, costing them at most 60 seconds extra in the pits, something that can be overcome. Peugeot's engine change and 10 minute suspension fix cannot be overcome at Lemans

I still think the test tells more about what will happen at the 24 hrs then Spa does. How many times has an Audi vehicle been competitive with the 908 at tracks leading up to Lemans but always ended up getting blown away at Lemans? This time I think the rolls are a bit reversed. The 908 has proved competitive if not a bit faster at Spa, but at the lemans Test, where it mattered, the R18 was clearly faster.

Add on the fact the R18 so far has been reliable, I'm choosing them as the favorites.

Thankfully for Peugeot they had the test and they know where they are lacking speed.

In 2009 the R15 didn't have a test day. As a consequence the car didn't turn competitive lap times until Sunday mourning.

Peugeot had the test day which should help them catch up somewhat, but I think Audi has the best combination of speed and reliability right now. Only thing that can really stop them is if this issue with their tires getting pickup continues at Le Mans

Or who knows, maybe this could be like 2007 where over a couple of laps the 908 was clearly faster but lacked the pace over a fuel run

[knighty]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Got 3 in hand of the 908. Just waiting to chat with Sam Collins to see if they are the winner to the bounty. Nothing of the R18 this weekend though.

ooh great, cant wait!

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

In this PR piece, McNish claims that Audi has the pace, but admits that the car lacked consistancy in race trim:

http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publi...cle_6814.shtml

A result of not running more races before Spa?

I know some are always quick to draw conclusions out of thin air, and pontificate endlessly... but think about it. Which more races did they miss?

Long Beach -> I think you'll find it to be a stretch and a half to conclude missing Long Beach has put Audi behind the eight ball.

Paul Ricard -> Ok, an argument could be made, but without the factory Pugs pushing them, would it really matter? Evenso, one race....

Sure, maybe they should have run Sebring too... but

The car simply isn't far enough along it's development schedule yet.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

In this PR piece, McNish claims that Audi has the pace, but admits that the car lacked consistancy in race trim:

http://www.fourtitude.com/news/publi...cle_6814.shtml

The press article also mentions: "For Audi Sport Team Joest, the countdown to the Le Mans 24 Hours seamlessly continues. After the 1000-kilometer race at Spa the tream stayed in Belgium to practice changing components on the new Audi R18 TDI and pit stops."

This reminds of the scene in Truth in 24, where the Audi crew was practicing pit stops while the Peugeot trucks were arriving to the track

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Holt

Peugeot has had 2 major issues with their cars already in front of public eyes, the engine replacement at the test day and the suspension failure at Spa. Both of these would equal a deathblow if they happened during the 24 hours.

A fix for the engine issue is ready.

Originally Posted by Holt

This time I think the rolls are a bit reversed. The 908 has proved competitive if not a bit faster at Spa, but at the lemans Test, where it mattered, the R18 was clearly faster.

The situation during the Le Mans test day was very similar to the Spa weekend.

Audi was quick out of the box, but they did not improve their pace that much during the day. The fastest lap in the first session was 3:27.900 and in the second session 3:27.687.

Peugeot on the other hand steadily improved their pace throughout the day. The fastest lap in the first session was 3:30.516 and in the second session 3:27.876.

[templer]

[QUOTE=Holt;2877664]The R18 is in my eyes still the favorite to win Lemans

Peugeot has had 2 major issues with their cars already in front of public eyes, the engine replacement at the test day and the suspension failure at Spa. Both of these would equal a deathblow if they happened during the 24 hours.

Audi has only had minor problems, costing them at most 60 seconds extra in the pits, something that can be overcome. Peugeot's engine change and 10 minute suspension fix cannot be overcome at Lemans

You are right that Peugeot had the more serious problems and they did not have the suspension problem for the first time. That could be a real problem at Le Mans and cause a serious accident.
But I was also surprised by the number of minor problems of Audi after approx more than 50.000 test kilometers. They had not only damages after collisions, one car activated the speed limiter, one car stopped near the pits without we know why and one car need a splash n' dash shortly before the finish. The Spa race was also far away from a perfect performance as shown many times at Le Mans by Audi and Team Joest.

So both teams have still a lot of work.

[chernaudi]

That could be a problem for the 908's if they need time to pick up speed. At Le Mans in '09, the Audi's got on par with the 908's during the night, but even without the overheating issues, wouldn't likely have been enough to make a huge amount of difference.

If the Audis can get a lead by running fast laps earlier and it takes a while for the Pugs to draw even, it'll be an uphill fight for Peugeot, which used to be the way it was for Audi--they'd eventually run competitive times in the race, but the Pugs's early pace left them behind and only their issues brought Audi back into the battle.

Of course, if Audi had run 1-2 races before Spa (Paul Ricard being my choice), they'd have learned about the car in traffic and on a dirty track (which Sebring was in March, but a rain storm washed some of the dirt and clag off the track), as well as maybe drill them on the bodywork issues that they had at Spa, which hurt them more than anything else Saturday.

Which it seems it what the goal was behind Audi staying at Spa for an extra day or two--to address the issues that held them back in the race.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Which it seems it what the goal was behind Audi staying at Spa for an extra day or two--to address the issues that held them back in the race.

It is pretty clear from the press release that they did not do any running on the track I don't think that you can rent the track. They practiced pitstops and repairs in the pit lane.

[ger80]

Not sure about Audi - Dr. Ullrich and Juettner had a lot of discussions during the race

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by templer

But I was also surprised by the number of minor problems of Audi after approx more than 50.000 test kilometers.

Where did you hear/read that number?

In an interview before Spa Quesnel said that Peugeot has only do 30.000+ km of testing. We know that they started testing a lot earlier than Audi and that they went to at least Monza (2x), Aragon (2x), Paul Ricard (2x), Sebring (race week) and Le Mans (test day).

As far as we can tell, Audi did Homestead, Sebring (2x), Paul Ricard and Le Mans (test day).

Originally Posted by templer

They had not only damages after collisions, one car activated the speed limiter, one car stopped near the pits without we know why and one car need a splash n' dash shortly before the finish. The Spa race was also far away from a perfect performance as shown many times at Le Mans by Audi and Team Joest.

All the Audis had to do extra fuel stop at the end of the race, because they were pitting out of sync after all the minor issues (puncture, collision damage, pickup, ...).

How can you prepare for collision damage in testing? How can you simulate the pressure of a faster Peugeot chasing your car through heavy traffic?

[Adam43]

You can't, but you can practice, practice, practice so that it becomes second nature. Then the pressure has less to get hold of.

[Martin90]

Originally Posted by ger80

Not sure about Audi - Dr. Ullrich and Juettner had a lot of discussions during the race

Caught my eye as well. However, it seems as if Dr. Ullrich was very relaxed. I've seen him much more stressed in races with similar situations, so I was acutally quite surprised to see him like that

[gwyllion]

McNish's column for SPEED.com

Like Treluyer (see here) he also suggests that Peugeot added some extra downforce after the practice sessions.

Nearly everyone was using the weekend as a sort of warmup to Le Mans, but in different ways. While we were essentially running in full Le Mans trim, it seemed like Peugeot piled on quite a bit of downforce after practice.

[henk4]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

McNish's column for SPEED.com

Like Treluyer (see here) he also suggests that Peugeot added some extra downforce after the practice sessions.

I did an analysis of the topspeed during the race and the topspeed of each car during the practice sessions. All Pugs hit 300 kph during the race, and were only marginally faster during free practice sessions. So while they may have done something it is not as dramatic as the difference of the race pace of the Pugs vis-a-vis the Audis. But of course it is rather convenient for the Audi drivers to put at this aspect, and maybe they find some consolation from this.

Edit: apologies for using the word "may" twice....

[gwyllion]

Treluyer said add more downforce and turn up the engine. That would explain why the top speed did not go down.

Anyway the Audi drivers felt that they could not follow the Peugeots in the twisty 2nd sector. Either that means more mechanical grip (better use of tyres) or more downforce...