2010 Bathurst 12 hour

[Sheep Stations]

That injection of spectators would be helped by the inclusion of M3, Porsche Cayman S and any other sports car or sports sedan up to $200k that has a manufacturer supported dealer network to back it up.

Get back to the win on Sunday, sell on Monday philosophy that boosts crowd numbers and encourages manufacturer participation.

[mildura1963]

Too true Sheep....they certainly would be welcome additions, even they might struggle against an Evo, it is a shame Subaru do not put in a works team.

[Wood-duck]

Is there anything majorly wrong with the cars that currently compete ?

There is a great mix: the EVO, WRX, Sportwagon, 135i and 335i BM's, a range of HSV and Falcons, the MPS Mazda 3, right down to the diesel classes. Would the addition of the M3 and/or a Porsche really make a massive difference ?

Porsche Carrera cup wasnt a massive hit, so would the addition of a bottom of the range Porsche make a big difference to the event ? You would say probably not.

If the Mustang, Camaro etc are invited, that might add some spice as long as the rules arent bent to allow them to compete, ah-la the Monaro in Nations cup.

The 2nd coming of the 12 hour has always showcased 'affordable exotica'. Personally, I would like to see it stay that way, rather than make the same mistake that PROCAR did with the GT-P series, whereby they revise the rules to let one or two cars in, then the floodgates open and you end up with a series of bona-fide sports cars.

That is what the GT championship is for.

The 12 Hour is still relatively new as an event, and it will take time to develop. It has been growing year on year and the 2010 race should be red hot. I think it is a vital component for the sport going forward - a format that allows most manufacturers to showcase their vehicles, whilst at the same time allows privateers to chance to shine, and is an geniune endurance race

just like the 1000 of 20-30 years ago.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Does it qualify?

Probably not, but as pointed out on Top Gear the GT500 has shortcomings and the brakes, suspension & differential need to be upgraded to keep pace with the engine IMO. The GT500 wasn't meant to be raced, it was meant to look good, sound good and go fast in a straight line.

[Sheep Stations]

Wood-duck, with all due respect, wtf does Carrera Cup (and its popularity??!) and GT have to do with my post about inclusion of mid-range sports cars in the B12hour?

Porsche, as an example, produce 28 different models across 4 ranges of vehicles. A dealer network of 11 and sells over a 1000 cars to the Australian public each year. Does that not warrant consideration as a production car manufacturer?

I'm talking about a sub $160k car that is middle of the Porsche range yet representative of the type of car that fits broadly into the mantra of what the B12 says is its mission.

You describe it as bottom of the range?! Sorry, but thats pure ignorance. I wouldn't be actively campaigning for the inclusion of the car if it wasn't going to be at the very pointy end.

The event has improved over the years largely because of the organisational side. There's always room for improvement and inclusion.

[Sheep Stations]

ps: would the event by heightened by the inclusion of BMW M3, Porsche Cayman S, Audi S5 etc etc??

2-3 car manufacturer teams that included customer invitations in very large numbers to corporate hospitality, car club supporters, aspirational buyers etc.

I would argue it couldn't hurt.

[V8 Fireworks]

What's the price cap again?

A 4-door look would help with the feel of the event where possible IMO, but a Cayman is not stretching it too far. Someone trying to enter an Elfin would be going too far IMO.

[Sheep Stations]

Was $125k for past events, in principle is $150k for next year. I see your point on the 4 door thing, but somehow a 2.2 tonne Cayenne flying over skyline doesn't give me much of a tickle in the nether regions, no matter how much of a Porsche nut I am. Would need a brake change at every 20 minute refuel.

4 doors was the go for the atomic family. Things have changed a bit...

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by mildura1963

Too true Sheep....they certainly would be welcome additions, even they might struggle against an Evo, it is a shame Subaru do not put in a works team.

Noticed Dean Herridge was getting track time at Barbagallo last weekend, Improved Production in Liberty RS ... doesnt do much racing does he?

[Driver TBA]

Originally Posted by Sheep Stations

ps: would the event by heightened by the inclusion of BMW M3, Porsche Cayman S, Audi S5 etc etc??

2-3 car manufacturer teams that included customer invitations in very large numbers to corporate hospitality, car club supporters, aspirational buyers etc.

I would argue it couldn't hurt.

Have to aggree with you there SS.

Add Mercedes to that list and I would aggree that these are the types of manufacturers that would support this type of event. Did'nt Mercedes hire out Bathurst last year for the release of one of their new cars? I'm sure they would have got more airtime had it been done at the 12 hour.

The 12 hour in its current form lacks the appeal to anyone else other than the hardcore race enthusiast. AMG's, M3's, Porsche's (anything bar a 4door or SUV) and Audi's would add some sex appeal to the event.

I would rather see my prefered aspirational car win rather than the car I drive or could afford to drive win. I'm sure Joe average punter might have more of a reason to tune into the broadcast or head out to the track.

[mildura1963]

are they still persisting with the SUV class?

[Wood-duck]

ok gents I see your point(s).

To me, as a non-porsche person, Porsches have had plenty of series in which to showcase their make over the years. Porsche Cup, Nations Cup, Carrera Cup, GT, the 24 hour etc.. and I dont see the brand being the 'make or break' drawcard for the 12 hour's future.

If the Cayman S, WAS included - would the Porsche factory support it, after having it's fingers burned in the fiasco that was the final year or so of Carrera Cup ? And, would the factory support it if there was a fair chance their expensive toy was going to have it's backside handed to it by a car or cars half it's price or less ?

Maybe. Maybe not.

Whilst I agree with you that Mercedes, Audi etc would sex up the event, the organisers need to be careful that it does not discourage other manufacturers, or the price cap keeps on being increased to include cars that people wish to run, then the event ends up in the same mess as Nations Cup.

The rules are good as they are. If Merc, Audi and Porsche have a car that fits that criteria, then all well and good. Let them run, it would be great from a PR point of view, as long as the rules aren't changed to facilitate an entry, and said entry promptly blows everything else into the weeds...

[mildura1963]

Maybe classes should be determined on the cost of the vehicle like they used to be in the distant past.

[FPV8U]

There are many "if's" but if the Rumored GT500 Does race and If it is prepped by a Good team i think it might suprise more than a few people.

Also agree if they could secure support from Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volkswagen, Nissan, Ect it would add a huge amount to the event.

[Driver TBA]

Originally Posted by Wood-duck

ok gents I see your point(s).

To me, as a non-porsche person, Porsches have had plenty of series in which to showcase their make over the years. Porsche Cup, Nations Cup, Carrera Cup, GT, the 24 hour etc.. and I dont see the brand being the 'make or break' drawcard for the 12 hour's future.

If the Cayman S, WAS included - would the Porsche factory support it, after having it's fingers burned in the fiasco that was the final year or so of Carrera Cup ? And, would the factory support it if there was a fair chance their expensive toy was going to have it's backside handed to it by a car or cars half it's price or less ?

Maybe. Maybe not.

Whilst I agree with you that Mercedes, Audi etc would sex up the event, the organisers need to be careful that it does not discourage other manufacturers, or the price cap keeps on being increased to include cars that people wish to run, then the event ends up in the same mess as Nations Cup.

The rules are good as they are. If Merc, Audi and Porsche have a car that fits that criteria, then all well and good. Let them run, it would be great from a PR point of view, as long as the rules aren't changed to facilitate an entry, and said entry promptly blows everything else into the weeds...

I defiantly don't want to see it head down the Nations Cup/PROCAR path with race specials like the Mustang and monaro. Promises of building these 'special' cars like Ford did in GT Performance and Holden did in Nations Cup, then not bothering to build the road going versions once their racing/marketing program had finished. If they don't already build the car then they don't race it!

I don't want to see exotic supercars race either, thats what AGT is for.
I would like to see cars that arn't 'supercars' race but don't fall within the current price cap.

The current class's are fine, but why not add some more at the front end of the grid. While Diesel, Hybrid and SUV's class's might add varity to the event, the paying punter is primarily attacted to the big boys running at the front.

The manufacturers I listed earlier all have a proven history of getting involved motorsport and probably have the client base that would also take an interest too. They are also the manufacturers that would attract the paying punter, which may inturn attract class car manufacturers who may see a benifit due to the profile of the event.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Driver TBA

I defiantly don't want to see it head down the Nations Cup/PROCAR path with race specials like the Mustang and monaro. Promises of building these 'special' cars like Ford did in GT Performance and Holden did in Nations Cup, then not bothering to build the road going versions once their racing/marketing program had finished. If they don't already build the car then they don't race it!

Please forgive my ignorance, but which special cars did Ford build in GTP?

[Driver TBA]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Please forgive my ignorance, but which special cars did Ford build in GTP?

Ford ran a modified Mustang in Ford Racing colours (which was red ironically) for John Bowe in 2001, built and prepped by Prancing Horse Racing. The Road going version was going to be tuned by Herrod Automotive from memory which never happened. The car caused a bit of a stir in the GTP ranks as it was allowed freedoms others felt it shouldn't.

[Wood-duck]

Thanks TBA, you get what I was banging on about.

"racing specials" have always been a thorn for production car racing, hopefully the 12 hour organisers can write a rule book around this problem. The Mustang is a great example. It wasn't a "true" production car and flogged everything.

As the event grows and builds, I think the Manufacturers will come. Nissan have a very good car in the new 370, Audi's TT S would also be quite a potent little mousetrap... the R32 Golf would be great to see as well.

It need not be a full on factory effort like what we saw in the early 12 hour races in the 90's, but more along the lines of what Holden has done with it's Sport Wagon.

And the more 'name' drivers that embrace it, the better... that will bring the punters.

The 2010 event will only be the 4th year of 12 hr Mrk 2, and I think the 12 hour has been growing well considering the greater economic conditions. The 2009 race was very well run.

What it is really crying out for is a series, that will allow the cars to run more than once a year at reasonable events. This gives the people building the cars more incentive to spend the money as they will be used more than once a year.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by Driver TBA

Ford ran a modified Mustang in Ford Racing colours (which was red ironically) for John Bowe in 2001, built and prepped by Prancing Horse Racing. The Road going version was going to be tuned by Herrod Automotive from memory which never happened. The car caused a bit of a stir in the GTP ranks as it was allowed freedoms others felt it shouldn't.

Yes, I remember the car but I wasn't aware that Ford had any involvement. What freedoms did the Mustang have?

[Driver TBA]

Originally Posted by bluesport

Yes, I remember the car but I wasn't aware that Ford had any involvement. What freedoms did the Mustang have?

I tried to Google for a pic of the stang, but could'nt find one.

However, I found this.

In the Touring Car Challenge, David Towe will take the wheel of the ex-John Bowe Mustang, and will no doubt adapt quickly from his light BMW M3 to the hulking V8 Mustang.

from here.

http://www.irace.net.au/news/index.p...ries=HDT%20Cup


Maybe David can fill us in on the Mustang's spec's better than I could?


Edit.

Woops! My bad.

Just Remembered

The cars major sponsor was Budweiser, with Ford Racing appearing on the rear quarters from memory.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Driver TBA

I would rather see my prefered aspirational car win rather than the car I drive or could afford to drive win.

Wouldn't entries in lower diesel classes, of FWD cars, or of cars that aren't going to be able to win (370Z?) be a better indicator of manufacturer support and the spirt of the race.

Mitsubishi win, but the support is minimal, doesn't it show the outright "win" is not a huge marketing bonaza.

[Oldtony]

I know I'm geriatric and a little demented but I'm afraid that the push to get bigger and more expensive toys for the B12 is not nessecarily the way to attract either manufacturer or punter interest. Certainly the move to $150k offers som possibilities at the pointy end, but it is a bit less "Win Sunday, sell Monday" than the great era of Touring Car racing. (why did I but that Cortina GT?) Certainly the cars need to be toward the aspirational end of the market, but odd ball things like the Mustang, Camaroo etc that are only available in very limited numbers don't fit in my opinion. Perhaps even a small target total like 100 delivered and registered in Oz would make it more relevant.
Also in terms of image I think the diesel/alternative energy/hybrid class offers a opportunity for manufacturers, but it does need an "index of performance" based on economy to attract public interest.
As an aside I heard somwhere that Win Percy was coming out to run an XFtdi Jag in Classic Adelaide. Any idea if there is an ongoing program for it, and if so can BMW with the 320d and Audi with the A4 Quattro tdi afford the Alfa and the Xf to become viewed as the only sporting diesels?

[davo.]

More info on the utes entering.

Western Australians, Grant Johnson and Allan Letcher, will enter a Holden SS Commodore VE that has been built especially for the event by Hi Tech Motorsports’, John Pachos.
“It has exactly the same specs as the V8 Ute Racing Series but has a different fuel system,” said Pachos.
The Western Australians met at the Bathurst 12 Hour in the early 90’s and have driven together in other 12 hour events; four in Malaysia, one of which they won together.
We have been talking to Craig McCarthney from New Zealand and should know soon if he will take the drive with us,” said Johnson.
Johnson and Letcher have both returned from competing in the Yokohama V8 Ute Racing Series at Bathurst and the Holden drivers are pleased with the times the Utes were doing around the track.
“If we can roll out the times we were doing on the weekend (2:34’s) we should run close to the top 5 overall,” said Johnson.
The iconic Australian Utility (Ute) was entered for the first time in 2009 with Johnson the one and only entrant. Next year he will be joined by the new Ford FG, which will debut at the Event and be driven by current V8 Ute competitors, Ben Dunn and Andrew Fisher.
“We will run the Ute as a prototype FG and as a trial for the 2011 category,” said V8 Ute Board member and driver Ben Dunn.

[RS500]

I would love to see a few more of the FWD hot hatches come over from europe

RS focus
Megane R26R
Seat Leon's
ect

would have great handling across the top of the mountain, the renault is only 5 seconds slower around the 'ring than the EVO IX

[racer69]

The event attracted what, 47 cars this year, not a bad effort. You'd be brave to mess with the formula of entries too much i would have thought with grids that size.

Are the likes of Camaro's or GT500 Mustangs running really going to attract more punters?

Originally Posted by Driver TBA

Ford ran a modified Mustang in Ford Racing colours (which was red ironically) for John Bowe in 2001,

To be fair wasn't the car sponsored by Budweiser, hence it running in red?