NZV8's 2011/12

[Stockman]

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

if the MRX is a fail, then the costs should be forwarded to the turncaots that stole the original 'car of the future' and ran away with it.

"Stole" is a bit strong, it has been established that all costs in the development of this car was privately funded.

"Ran away with it" from my understanding VEEGA with 100% support from its shareholders was in a dispute with TMC which it was unable to resolve.
When you have a good product but cant work with the company that is charged to promote this product what do you do.

Again I state when you look at the experience of those persons whom developed this car and the numbers that eventually left VEEGA, there is more to it that just 'running away with it'.

[promax]

so you're saying they had every right to take what was the NZV8 COT.. put a new sticker on it.. and claim it's something else?

what about those that didn't want to take the new toy and leave? or don't they matter?

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by promax

so you're saying they had every right to take what was the NZV8 COT.. put a new sticker on it.. and claim it's something else?

what about those that didn't want to take the new toy and leave? or don't they matter?

My understanding was that neither TMC or MSNZ put up any money for development of the NZV8 COT - it was all private funds and the majority of those private funders decided to move on.
Also, from what I understand the NZV8 COT and the ST are different animals and even the ST prototype and ST production car are significantly different.
I'm sure the NZV8/TMC/MSNZ people would have had a hard look at their legal remedies (I think I recollect a media release saying they were contemplating legal action) and the fact that nothing has happened is telling.
Its a murky world out there and I'm sure there are all sorts of things happening on both sides that the likes of us observers will never hear about.
The sad thing is if the MRX car doesn't get around 20 buyers then all the MSNZ members are going to end up with increased fees to compensate for the loss MSNZ will suffer.

[promax]

so what happened to the aussie built NZV8 COT?

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by promax

so what happened to the aussie built NZV8 COT?

Reading back, at the start of this thread you seemed supportive of the ST's, what changed? Between you and Smokin' Joe (who has been negative the whole time) there is a lot of negativity about a potentially great series.

You just have to look at the driver lineups, you wouldn't get a lot of them in an NZV8 so why are they coming to drive the ST's unless they're something good?

[DRIFDY]

I say afew/alot of people are just ****ed about how thing has gone down.
Really if you live Christchurch and above life goes on and it looks like ST are going to be better for all involved. its just Timaru and Teretonga are stuck in the middle left in the lurch at no fault of ther own

[promax]

you talking about the "aussie" drivers? no doubt it would be easier for an aussie driver with V8SC experience to get sponsor's $$$'s to pay for a driver in NZ.. than a local boy. i'm rather surprised a local boy (or girl) didn't climb over their grandmother for #556 drive. JMR have owned NZV8 series for a number of years.. yet a seat for arguably the top V8 had to be advertised?

i'm not sure why i should be excited over what has been going on over the last few months (or years). one of the best classes we've had in a long time has gone from feilds of 30+.. to 16 in total.. with 8 doing all the rounds. too many cars have been parked because of all the bs that has been going on.. now all of a sudden these missing cars are going to make an appearance.. cause the ST group have created a new home for them? give me a break! lol

far too many things stink over this split. parading the prototype around talking it up about how innovative it was compared to what was going on in NZV8 class was poor. especially when people that built the ST prototype were meant to be the same people building the NZV8 prototype.. if they didn't already. then to add a renamed NZV8 class to the mix *shakes head* how is that good motorsport in this country?

i don't dislike ST group. all the bs that has been caused because of the split is what i dislike. and yes.. i know parties on both sides are at fault.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by promax

you talking about the "aussie" drivers? no doubt it would be easier for an aussie driver with V8SC experience to get sponsor's $$$'s to pay for a driver in NZ.. than a local boy. i'm rather surprised a local boy (or girl) didn't climb over their grandmother for #556 drive. JMR have owned NZV8 series for a number of years.. yet a seat for arguably the top V8 had to be advertised?

i'm not sure why i should be excited over what has been going on over the last few months (or years). one of the best classes we've had in a long time has gone from feilds of 30+.. to 16 in total.. with 8 doing all the rounds. too many cars have been parked because of all the bs that has been going on.. now all of a sudden these missing cars are going to make an appearance.. cause the ST group have created a new home for them? give me a break! lol

far too many things stink over this split. parading the prototype around talking it up about how innovative it was compared to what was going on in NZV8 class was poor. especially when people that built the ST prototype were meant to be the same people building the NZV8 prototype.. if they didn't already. then to add a renamed NZV8 class to the mix *shakes head* how is that good motorsport in this country?

i don't dislike ST group. all the bs that has been caused because of the split is what i dislike. and yes.. i know parties on both sides are at fault.

I'm talking about Murph, Bairdo, etc. Plus whatever Aussies. Murph is a crowd puller by himself anyway.

The NZV8 grids were in decline well before the split happened - in the heyday they were fantastic with lots of paint swapping, wheel to wheel racing and grids of 30+ cars that would stretch right around the corner at Pukekohe.

But even then there was a big problem with the marketing (or lack of) for the series, and there was simmering dissent amongst the ranks. TMC had a great product that could and should easily have attracted 15-20k fans to the tracks regularly, but numbers never really looked like that, and the lack of advertising meant that sponsors didn't come on board like they should. Add to that the (alleged) mis-handling of the Parker Enzed account as primary sponsor, and the NZ Truth fiasco and you can see why some decided it was time to go do something else (take a look at the 30+ F5000 grid - you might just find some ex-NZV8 drivers there...)

The new NZV8 COTF idea looked like a good one but I would suspect that a group of the most dissatisfied of the few remaining entrants were probably already thinking that TMC would not handle the new format any better than they had the current one, and were looking for an "out."

The situation that saw TMC terminate their shareholding in NZV8's Ltd or whatever it was called was probably the straw that broke the camel's back. They saw an opportunity to do things better with a great new product and the rest, as they say, is history.

Only time will tell whether they will be successful, but as an outsider you would have to say they've already done a much slicker job of marketing the cars and the series than TMC ever did with the NZV8's. They are wanting to raise the bar a long way, so we will just have to wait and see how that turns out.

On a brighter note, when splits have occured in other sports (English Premier League vs Division 1, Super League vs ARL, IRL vs Champcar, 5 Litre V8's vs Aussie 2 Litre Touring Cars, etc.) the splits have been relatively short lived. Generally the older series has suffered for a while, and the new one has done better, but then amalgamation takes place, albeit with different and more savvy people at the top. End result is usually a better product run by people who are good at what they do.

Let's just hope that this all works out well for us, the fans, in the medium-long term.

BTW, I'm sure Timaru/Teretonga would be on the cards for the ST's provided they upgrade their pit facilities.

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

BTW, I'm sure Timaru/Teretonga would be on the cards for the ST's provided they upgrade their pit facilities.

It would be even better if they did something about those poxy rubber-tyred banks. I'm sure they thought tyres were a good idea to minimize damage to cars, but filling them the way they have is daft. If you slip off into them at any pace, your car is munted.

[promax]

it is what it is

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

(take a look at the 30+ F5000 grid - you might just find some ex-NZV8 drivers there...)

hell, i'd pay money to see Proctor race Fogg in a wheelbarrow.. let alone a F5000 ha damn those F5000 sound so good!

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by RogerH

Well for a start MSNZ donates $90k per year to TMC as "administrative assistance". This was approved years ago as a one-off to help TMC become established but just continues year after year - it has mounted to over $1m of members money. If this didn't happen then your and my licence fees, event entries fees etc would all be less. I am sure the money for the MRX design and jigs comes out of the same pot so you are correct in that it increase all the fees you, me and all the other pay.
There is also a risk that the MRX car won't be successful and if they don't sell then MSNZ members will face another loss.

And that's what happens in these crony capitalism cases where the "government"(MNZ in this case, the FIA appointed non profit to govern motorsport in NZ) cozies up and picks a private enterprise to favor for it's own purposes, subsidies that are given out tend to end up creating a culture of dependency and expectation.

Once that co-dependent relationship is established, the "government" obviously is going to do whatever it takes to keep that relationship going and cut down others whether through PR demonization, bureaucratic mingling and interference and the creation of even more handouts to favor it's selected enterprise and it can put the free enterprises out there on their own at a competitive disadvantage for not receiving such handouts.

Also you have the "citizens"(in this case member clubs, license holders and other miscellaneous groups/people that financially contribute) and they end up not having much say about where their revenue is being directed to. So the "citizens" ultimately end up on the hook.

And again I don't believe they had or have any malicious intent, they are doing what they think is the right thing to do and once they have made those commitments, the tendency is to continue feeding them.

But I think it's obvious for all to see the unintended consequences and this has all led to.

In any case, what has happened has happened, so the best thing to do is to move forward and seek solutions so everyone can at least get along, even if they have a difference of opinion.

[RogerH]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

And that's what happens in these crony capitalism cases where the "government"(MNZ in this case, the FIA appointed non profit to govern motorsport in NZ) cozies up and picks a private enterprise to favor for it's own purposes, subsidies that are given out tend to end up creating a culture of dependency and expectation.

Once that co-dependent relationship is established, the "government" obviously is going to do whatever it takes to keep that relationship going and cut down others whether through PR demonization, bureaucratic mingling and interference and the creation of even more handouts to favor it's selected enterprise and it can put the free enterprises out there on their own at a competitive disadvantage for not receiving such handouts.

Also you have the "citizens"(in this case member clubs, license holders and other miscellaneous groups/people that financially contribute) and they end up not having much say about where their revenue is being directed to. So the "citizens" ultimately end up on the hook.

And again I don't believe they had or have any malicious intent, they are doing what they think is the right thing to do and once they have made those commitments, the tendency is to continue feeding them.

But I think it's obvious for all to see the unintended consequences and this has all led to.

In any case, what has happened has happened, so the best thing to do is to move forward and seek solutions so everyone can at least get along, even if they have a difference of opinion.

I fear with the MSNZ/TMC "relationship" that MSNZ are in so deep (both in financial and commitment terms) that they can't face cutting and running and have fallen into the old trap of "investing" good money after bad - maybe its because there aren't many business people at the MSNZ Executive table and their co-opted "business" advisor is a director of TMC.

Interesting that on 23 January 2012 three directors of TMC were recorded as having just resigned (Kennedy, Te Punga and Brenssell) - wonder if it has anything to do with rats and ships?

[MacrosNZ]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

But even then there was a big problem with the marketing (or lack of) for the series.

... and that's still the case. For a series that's been around for quite a few years it should have more than 300 likes on Facebook.

[Jerico]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

I'm talking about Murph, Bairdo, etc. Plus whatever Aussies. Murph is a crowd puller by himself anyway.

The NZV8 grids were in decline well before the split happened - in the heyday they were fantastic with lots of paint swapping, wheel to wheel racing and grids of 30+ cars that would stretch right around the corner at Pukekohe.

But even then there was a big problem with the marketing (or lack of) for the series, and there was simmering dissent amongst the ranks. TMC had a great product that could and should easily have attracted 15-20k fans to the tracks regularly, but numbers never really looked like that, and the lack of advertising meant that sponsors didn't come on board like they should. Add to that the (alleged) mis-handling of the Parker Enzed account as primary sponsor, and the NZ Truth fiasco and you can see why some decided it was time to go do something else (take a look at the 30+ F5000 grid - you might just find some ex-NZV8 drivers there...)

The new NZV8 COTF idea looked like a good one but I would suspect that a group of the most dissatisfied of the few remaining entrants were probably already thinking that TMC would not handle the new format any better than they had the current one, and were looking for an "out."

The situation that saw TMC terminate their shareholding in NZV8's Ltd or whatever it was called was probably the straw that broke the camel's back. They saw an opportunity to do things better with a great new product and the rest, as they say, is history.

Only time will tell whether they will be successful, but as an outsider you would have to say they've already done a much slicker job of marketing the cars and the series than TMC ever did with the NZV8's. They are wanting to raise the bar a long way, so we will just have to wait and see how that turns out.

On a brighter note, when splits have occured in other sports (English Premier League vs Division 1, Super League vs ARL, IRL vs Champcar, 5 Litre V8's vs Aussie 2 Litre Touring Cars, etc.) the splits have been relatively short lived. Generally the older series has suffered for a while, and the new one has done better, but then amalgamation takes place, albeit with different and more savvy people at the top. End result is usually a better product run by people who are good at what they do.

Let's just hope that this all works out well for us, the fans, in the medium-long term.

BTW, I'm sure Timaru/Teretonga would be on the cards for the ST's provided they upgrade their pit facilities.

Very good post Goat Boy. Funny how some people just don't like the facts to get in the way of a good story. I just hope they don't keep their heads I the sand to much longer and come out and support the new series. If they really are true motorsport fans they will I am sure.

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by promax

it is what it is

Well that's intriguing promax. You brush aside genuine safety issues with a cliche, but you get endlessly angry about a group of competitors disagreeing and going their own separate ways.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by DRIFDY

Its just Timaru and Teretonga are stuck in the middle left in the lurch at no fault of ther own

The issue at Teretonga is the lack of proper facilities - read pit garages.
I know that ST have decided to set a benchmark requirement for tracks.

Teretonga have been argueing about the positioning of the planned pit improvements for around 5 years (inside or outside). It isn't an issue of money - the funds are there already.
So I would say that the blame lies largely with the local club. Maybe this will give them some incentive to get on with it

Levels is a more complex situation.
The local community is fantastically supportive. The racing is always good.
However, there are genuine safety issues due to the speed of the cars and the (lack of) run-off areas

Those of us who have been around for a while know that this a club that has been to hell and back with the actions of 'citizens' complaining about noise an, expensive legal battles and draconian conditions. They don't have a large financial surplus and are heavily dependent on the income from the major meeting(s)
Perhaps Southern Man can tell more about the situation there but it is hard to see what can be done

[promax]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

Well that's intriguing promax. You brush aside genuine safety issues with a cliche, but you get endlessly angry about a group of competitors disagreeing and going their own separate ways.

now what are you going on about?

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Reading back, at the start of this thread you seemed supportive of the ST's, what changed? Between you and Smokin' Joe (who has been negative the whole time) there is a lot of negativity about a potentially great series.

read through my views on the subject, and get your facts straight before dragging a non-argument down to your level. i fail to see the point of getting into a battle of wits with an un-armed man.

Negative to what??
-sock puppets coming on here spouting on about how great a series it is before a wheel had been turned? yip, got me on that
-towards the actual cars themselves? wrong
-they way the whole rift was delicately handled to ensure everyone was happy with the direction of the chassis? OK, got me there too.
i understand what is below the surface at TMC isn't overly rosy, but neither is the way in which the new series has come about. all parties have behaved in an unsavoury manner, and not all the blame can honestly be directed at MSNZ or TMC.

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

You just have to look at the driver lineups, you wouldn't get a lot of them in an NZV8 so why are they coming to drive the ST's unless they're something good?

maybe because NZ is running a chassis that the Aussies will get and want to start gaining data?

[Chappelli]

To be fair, I'm not even entirely sure you can pull the "look at the driver lineups" card as I'd suggest Murph, McConville and Richards participation has more to do with financial matters than it does anything else.

I think it's fairly obvious that as a group V8ST will be spending quite literally millions of dollars more than NZV8's this year.

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

All parties have behaved in an unsavoury manner, and not all the blame can honestly be directed at MSNZ or TMC.

Or NZST - but you ment that...

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by Chappelli

I think it's fairly obvious that as a group V8ST will be spending quite literally millions of dollars more than NZV8's this year.

More than TMC and NZV8 combined???

What will be interesting will be the budget to run a car.

Like TRS, spending more will make things more shinyer but won't buy an advantage.
However also like TRS there will be a 'minimum' spend. This will appear to be higher than what many of the back markers in NZV8 currently think they spend and therefore the series will be 'too expensive'.

Bless the 'field fillers' little cotton socks for participating, but to be in with a shot you need to garner sufficient resources.

By forcing people to step up, the quality throughout the field will be more consistent and the spectacle improved as a result.

To suggest an answer to my (2nd) question
Cheaper tyres - reduced tyre budget.
Control engine - cheaper to purchase, less running cost per k and no development costs
Control suspension - No development costs or cost to carry a berzillion springs and bars.
Proper gearbox - same, maybe less maintainence
Proper diff - less maintainence and greater life
Correctly spec'd bakes - longer life. Less cost per k
Universally interchangable parts and parts supply at track - less outlay

Rebuttle please Chappelli

[DX20VT]

Originally Posted by on_to_it

You brush aside genuine safety issues with a cliche,

Are you referring to the tyre walls at Timaru,

As Levels has regular FIA safety inspections
(as do all the tracks I would presume)
and the FIA signed it off as safe so it cant be that much of an issue.

Moral of the story maybe is get the driver to keep it out of the tyre wall???

[promax]

no offence on_to_it..

i wasn't replying to your comment.. in fact i didn't even read it

[on_to_it]

In response to the last two posts - my comment about the the tyres relates to both Teretonga & Timaru tracks. I didn't add anything about very little run-off which I meant to - Icarus did that shortly afterwards. They may pass 'inspection' but I question the merit of hard-filling tyres? As you both will have seen, many an 'off' has been 'assisted' and those tyres have done a lot of damage.

[Chappelli]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

More than TMC and NZV8 combined???

Keep in mind that V8ST as a group have spent well over $3million in new assets alone. In addition to that, you've got a far greater number of drivers who're drawing a salary from their teams. I'd also suggest that the level of engineering expertise coming into the class isn't coming cheap...

TMC I think are a different kettle of fish, I think it's fairly clear from the posts on this forum that there are some issues there. That aside, they're promoting several classes, where V8ST have only the one barrow to push.

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

What will be interesting will be the budget to run a car.
Like TRS, spending more will make things more shinyer but won't buy an advantage.
However also like TRS there will be a 'minimum' spend. This will appear to be higher than what many of the back markers in NZV8 currently think they spend and therefore the series will be 'too expensive'.
Bless the 'field fillers' little cotton socks for participating, but to be in with a shot you need to garner sufficient resources.

In a lot of ways I don't disagree with you, but a quick check of the TRS website shows 5 local drivers and 15 international drivers. To me, that says the 'minimum' spend is 'too expensive'.
But, as you say, the interesting thing will be what that 'minimum' spend in V8ST is and I don;t think anyone can answer that until the season is under way.

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

By forcing people to step up, the quality throughout the field will be more consistent and the spectacle improved as a result.

That argument would say the GT3 field was more consistent and a better spectacle than the Utes and that's simply not the case.
There will be guys who are horribly out of their depth talent wise in V8ST, just as there are guys in NZV8's who're horribly out of their depth funding wise... the only difference is at least the guys in V8ST will have the money to make their cars look "shiny".

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

To suggest an answer to my (2nd) question
Cheaper tyres - reduced tyre budget.
Control engine - cheaper to purchase, less running cost per k and no development costs
Control suspension - No development costs or cost to carry a berzillion springs and bars.
Proper gearbox - same, maybe less maintainence
Proper diff - less maintainence and greater life
Correctly spec'd bakes - longer life. Less cost per k
Universally interchangable parts and parts supply at track - less outlay

All good points and tyres aside (feel free to update us on the actual cost of the Kuhmos) there's nothing on that list that appears to be different to what will happen when (and if) we see the new NZV8 roll out.

For the sake of being an argumentative so and so, I will point out that V8ST will have enduros, so while the cost per k is substantially cheaper than the current NZV8, the number of k's will be substantially higher.

On a side note, are their testing limits for either class? Surely that's go to be a clear cut way of keeping costs down-ish.