Penske/Porsche at Laguna

[jross427]

ok, im am astonished today by PLM, for one simple reason, Intersport. when people said that the Porsche would be just as fast as the P1's, i said to myself "no way" (but the i also said LMP675's could never compete with the 900's i was surprised with the pace of the Intersport team, and i think they'll be right up there at LS with the Porsche and the P1's. off topic, but great come back for the Saleen, it was great to see it making up time on the Vette's and Astons after the early problems, if they could only work out the gremlins, and they were at ACO specs

[CorvetteC6R]

I agree with you about Intersport. Maybe most found negative aspects of the race, but that was a bright spot. I was pleased with their effort and to me was one of the better P2 results I have seen in ALMS so far for an endurance race. Hopefully in a 4 hour race they could reach overall podium

[aeroehl]

Great run for Intersport. Don't forget 3/5 of the teams that had a chance to win the race were wounded badly in the first turn.

[billnchristy]

They did run like a freight train and that was refreshing to see in P2. I am also very proud of the old vintage racers in the 2002 GA SRPII championship team car taking a podium...that car was obviously much slower than even the Mazda, but it held in there and ran like a tank.

[skycafe]

Great stuff for BAT, I couldn't help but cheer them on, looks like they were out to have fun and they did. Reminded me of the good old days.


robert.

[awegrzyn]

I don't see a reason to be excited about P2. They were not fast. Only one of them was. What is that tell you? No compatition. I do not see why people want the P2 to be on the pace of P1? They can not even be on the pace of GT1 as of now. Everyone quickly forgot what the fundamentals were for P2.

[skycafe]

I think they should be second tier, like GTP Light was and C2 was. I am confused about how they are almost as fast as P1, and almost as complex (and right there expense wise). The Intersport entry has been shockingly fast at each appearance this year, and I really want to see what the Porsche does in competion against Intersport's Lola. I also wish the Horag-Lista car had been in the race at Petit and not on a plane back to Europe, as I wanted to see the comparison of two well run Lolas, one AER, one Judd.

[jhansen]

I don't think anyone forgot. Look what happened with the 675 cars. They ended up with the pace to win races. The problem is that running at that pace sometimes compromises reliability. But it would be foolish to assume that the new P2 cars cannot have fast pace.

Another comment on pace. Most of the cars not matching GT1 pace are old with the exception of perhaps BK Motorsports, which have their own list of problems. And you also need to remember that these cars tend to not have pro drivers in the car while you're comparing them to Corvette Racing, which is a factory backed team with pro drivers. Big difference.

[FastJoel31]

Originally Posted by awegrzyn

I don't see a reason to be excited about P2. They were not fast. Only one of them was. What is that tell you? No compatition. I do not see why people want the P2 to be on the pace of P1? They can not even be on the pace of GT1 as of now. Everyone quickly forgot what the fundamentals were for P2.

There were plenty of competitors...8 entrants total. Had Horag-Lista survived to run in the race, I bet there would've been a nice fight between them and Intersport. Miracle has kept up with Intersport all season. Binnie and Kruse were not that far back either, and with more reliable machinery, there could've been possibly a 4 or 5 car race. You cannot expect the P2s to keep up with the P1s, there is a reason for them to be in separate classes. And if you look back, P2s have always been right around the pace of GT1s (excluding Lola/MG).

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by awegrzyn

I don't see a reason to be excited about P2. They were not fast. Only one of them was. What is that tell you? No compatition. I do not see why people want the P2 to be on the pace of P1? They can not even be on the pace of GT1 as of now. Everyone quickly forgot what the fundamentals were for P2.

Unfortunately, your point of view is not supported by facts. Of the six cars entered in this class, 5 of them were faster than GT1. Only one proper P2 car was slower, and that is the BK car, which clearly has more issues than those that are apparent.

Currently, there are not many reasons to be excited about the class. The Lola seems to have the absolute measure of the Courage, and Intersport along with RML are heads above the rest of the field. It's a shame that we can't have RML over to North America to see which of the Lola's IS faster.

It would be nice to have a few Lola's over next year, and hopefully the Porsche LMP2 can mix it up with them.

[jhansen]

Good post Fogelhund.

Was the Nicholson-Mclaren engine holding back the Binnie car in relation to Intersport, or was it the drivers?

[brielga]

I have to say that the Courages have proven very fragile, in previous posts I have criticized P2 for the lack of arrivals, mainly this is due to the Courages, both the RML and the Horag-Lista team are mostly on top in LMES, even at LM where the debacle in this category was huge and Belmondo cooked out there with a dead Courage. Even the WR (oh no!!!!) was more reliable in 2004!!!

[JAG]

At Silverstone I was very impressed with the pace and general spectacle of the new generation P2s.

IMO, they outshone the restricted P1s, with the exception of the Audi.

With the Prosche and Radical coming on stream in 2006 I'm very optimistic for this class.

BTW, aren't Courage producing an update for the C65, thought I read that somewhere?

[awegrzyn]

Look at the results and you will see the supported facts for my view.

JHansen; exactly, look at what happened with 675. This is what I would love to avoid with P2 and make them a class of its own, as oppose of this mass where we have one superior car that is fast for few laps. Look at LMES and learns from them, their P2 have a class has character and it is very interesting to follow them. If you extracted P2 from ALMS and looked at it separately there would be no race. This is opposite in LMES. I hope ALMS goes in that direction. Porsche if comes faster than Intersport will screw ALMS.

[jhansen]

Yes, let's look at the 675 cars...

The MG-Lolas: 2 wins this year, one win in 2004, one win in 2003, and numerous poles (not a bad record considering that they have to beat Audi)

Zytek 04S: 2 1000K race wins this year, leading the LMES, blindingly quick car that is now finding some reliability (this is a 675 reg car)

Courage C65: Started off as a 675 car originally. Has numerous race wins in the P2 class.

Now that's not a bad bunch of cars if I do say so myself. And remember, none of the above cars have received intensive development on the level of a factory program like Porsche are doing with the RS Spyder.

[awegrzyn]

First, we are not talking about 675 cars converted to P1. Those are P1 cars now. Yes, they are fast, but so what. Where was the competition in P2 during 675 era?

My point across is to learn from the rest. Look at NASCAR, Grand am, Indy and etc. These series are successful, because the field is somehow "even". I know sports cars are not supposed to be "even", because that's not what defines them, however GT2 in ALMS is. GT2 is somehow unpredictable and that’s why I like it. Everyone in that class runs at some kind of similar level. Same thing can be said about GT1 when Astons are here and when the rest of the GT1 has no restrictions. That’s why those classes are the most attractive at the most. Close competition.

I know for sure the minute Porsche shows up and is the fastest P2 car, the minute we have a disaster. Why does that car have to prove that it can challenge for the overall? That will destroy P2, due to the lack or money for the other P2 teams to keep up. We have been there. Why come back to the same point A.

Porsche is only fooling Porsche if they have intentions to beat everyone out of P2. Why not just build a P1 car.

[jhansen]

Perhaps Grand-Am is the series for you then.

[awegrzyn]

I hope people at Atlanta do not share your view.

[Fogelhund]

Word is that Porsche will build a P1, and hopes to sell many P2 chassis. IF it is that fast, then it will sell, and I have no problems with there being as many Porsche P2's on the grid as we've seen GT2's.

[awegrzyn]

You don't have problems, majority will. If it was up to me, I would restrict Intersport Lola , because it got ahead of itself. If no one can compete speedwise with the car in the States and no other European team can match it's speed there is something wrong. As oppose to having a competitive class (P2) we have few mismanaged cars. Some almost challange for the overall and some are being passed by GT2 cars. Seems like a fundamental problem to me.

[Fogelhund]

I don't think the majority of people will have a problem with 6-8 Porsche P2's and a few others. Really, I think you will find yourself in a very small minority on this one. People laud the days of the Porsche 956/962/935's filling up the grids, and the same will be true here.

The problem is not the Intersport Lola, but the other cars in the class. You don't peg the class leader because they are better than others. The Miracle Courage is a well run car, but the chassis is overweight, and was built as an LMP900 originally. The number plate is from a C60. The Euro entries (Courage's) that came over were not of the best quality.

The Courage C65 is not really a clean sheet LMP2. There will be other cars to compete in the class coming down the pipe that should be more competitive. Hopefully some quality teams will come forth and race them.

The Lola is available to those who wish to purchase it. There is no restrictions. If RML had come over, you would not have seen Intersport be dominant... likely Lista might have given them a bit of a run too.

It is my opinion that if the ACO wanted to better seperate the LMP1 and LMP2 cars at tracks other than LM, they would be better served allowed the LMP1's a bit more speed, than pegging back the LMP2's into the clutches of the GT1's...

[cmk]

At the very least, it would've been great to see how the Horag Lista Lola stacked up against Intersport. Different lump, sure, but we'd at least be able to get a better read on how much of the Intersport car's pace was down to being well-run and how much is down to the car itself. They seemed to be fairly closely matched to RML at Le Mans, so I think we're just seeing that the Lola is a stronger car for obvious reasons than the Courage.

Still, it'd be nice to have a chance to compare some of the more competitive European Courages to the Intersport car. The Belmondo cars, perhaps (I think they're newer chassis?) or the black Kruse car if they could sort out the Judd installation. That chassis is way more developed than Barazi's car is, but it's no damn good if they're having the same woes as G-Force with the tub. There's no reason why Lola and Porsche shouldn't have the strongest cars though, they are after all true LMP2s.

[TheNewBob]

I think there needs to be more of an incentive for European teams to race at the likes of the Petit Le Mans etc. - the only time we get the US teams against Euro's at the min is at Le Mans - but championship races are run differently, and it's a shame that there's such a lack of European teams willing to pit their metal against some of the quick US teams.

[Mal]

Which is why it is such a shame that two of the competitive Euro teams that went to PLM were out so soon.

[KA]

Originally Posted by cmk

Still, it'd be nice to have a chance to compare some of the more competitive European Courages to the Intersport car. The Belmondo cars, perhaps (I think they're newer chassis?) or the black Kruse car if they could sort out the Judd installation. That chassis is way more developed than Barazi's car is, but it's no damn good if they're having the same woes as G-Force with the tub. There's no reason why Lola and Porsche shouldn't have the strongest cars though, they are after all true LMP2s.

According to pre-race comments from team boss Kai Kruse, (quoted on DSC), the team knew they'd be off the pace in LMP2 with the Barazi car- they were running what Kruse described as a 'no-gizmos' Courage, lacking refinements like anti-lag, flat-shift and even power steering.