Interesting Item on New Chassis in Indy Star (Merged)

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Do we think Ganassi and Penske will spend the money to produce their own stuff? I sure hope so, at least we'd have three different-looking cars in the field.

Dont the likes of Penske, Ganassi and Andretti already make their own aero parts for the existing chassis?

[6157]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

Pleas, don't hesitate to enlighten us all once again.

You're the great, insider blogger, the next Robin Miller, why do I need to enlighten you? You know it all already.

[Flyin Ryan]

JagTechOhio: The first issue is aero wake turbulence. Instead of being uniformly reduced as was the intent of Swift or Lola or BAT, it can be exploited for a competitive advantage by the components of a particular manufacturer.

This place never ceases to amaze me.

See, this is example A on why I just don't respect the opinions of the majority of people that post on message boards. There are some people that show themselves to be intelligent, but they're few. This is just bi tching for the sake of bi tching. Here, Indycar has made it so that even poor little me with few resources except I know a couple people in the business and in the aviation industry, can make the components to bolt on a car and I can have a shot to have my car race at Indy, therefore it was heavily democratized. That was why I wanted all along to go to tubeframes, because very few people have the capability to do a composite tub if you have to build the whole car, and therefore you're paying a premium for their capability because it's an oligarchy, and if you want multiple carmakers within that existing oligarchy, the economics are entirely out of whack so that you could only have one car constructer with a monopoly for it to make business sense. So they went down one thing from tubeframes because they wanted to have a composite cell for safety reasons, so "the cell is standardized, but everyone can do their own body". And this is painted as a bad thing because teams are going to prioritize going fastest? People talk about the "innovation and ingenuity" spirit of Indy and this allows a small person like Smokey Yunick or a big shot like Roger Penske or Andy Granatelli as we have seen in the past to come in and do their own thing, and this is wrong because "well, what about the aero wake?" So you'd rather have one car and one engine? No, because if they did that, you'd b itch as well.

(Part of having a good aero kit is you'll have to handle the turbulent air in front of you from the cars in front. If a constructor intentionally makes it hard to pass their car, that means no one that buys their car can pass their car when in the hands of another driver.)

The entire reason this decision came down was due to the criticism of the Indycar series from fans and some owners , so the people that have run Indycar racing for the first time in 25 years listened to the fans' opinion on the issue, and only on a message board such as Ten-Tenths would a fan than say "that's bad".

The opinion of some people here 99 times out of 100 just strikes me as a guy approaching a fork in the road. You can either go left or you can go right. If the driver goes left, people are going to complain he didn't go right. If the driver goes right, people are going to complain he didn't go left. So clearly the only way to make everyone happy is not turn at all, go straight, and crash and die at the tree behind where the fork starts. So the correct decision if driving, you stop the car before approaching the fork, kick those people out of the car, tell those people to f&#$ off, and then go what you think is best based on all available knowledge.

[6157]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Was it the IRL's idea for Dallara to set up a new place just for the IndyCars? Surely they could just build them in Parma where they do practically everything else.

Yes. A major part of the program was benefits for the Indiana economy.

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Dont the likes of Penske, Ganassi and Andretti already make their own aero parts for the existing chassis?

They're allowed to play with certain parts but the new package will enable them to design a completely different aero package: wings, sidepods, undertray, everything.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by awrb

I don't think the Dallara will be rubbish, they don't have a history of building bad cars. As for the HRT chassis, it is not that HRT couldn't afford updates to the car but the team actually missed payments to Dallara, causing Dallara to stop and start the project a few times, hence why the car isn't very good.

I think this is a decent rule set, and I think we'll see a much improved IndyCar in the future. It's not the open regulations we all wanted, but hopefully it's the first step toward that.

I think it's short sighted; adding aero bits from other manufacturers. If they wanted a generic tub/chassis with different aero bits, Lola had the complete package and it could be used in Indy Lights.

With the Dallara + added aero bits, who pays to test the car, once the aero bits are added on. E.g. Dallara with Swift added aeros, raced by Ganassi, who pays for testing, Dallara, Ganassi or Swift and where is it going to be tested, at Dallara's new plant in Indy or at Swifts plant in California?

[6157]

For the business savvy posters, if you were going with a spec tub, how could you not select Dallara? They've supported the series from day 1, they didn't quit when their car was uncompetitive, and they were the only ones (as far as I know) that agreed to increase the support to include manufacturing the tub near the base of most teams.

From this perspective, it's a no-brainer for me too.

[Flyin Ryan]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I think it's short sighted; adding aero bits from other manufacturers. If they wanted a generic tub/chassis with different aero bits, Lola had the complete package and it could be used in Indy Lights.

Like I told you a few pages ago, Lola only wanted that because they got to keep all the money. They made 100% of everything, got to keep 100% of the money, and they threw a bone to fans with a couple different token car body designs. (which would become a spec over time because teams would learn via testing and practice which setup was the most slippery in the air and fastest).

This system here, Lola can do the exact same thing with all their different body bits but this requires them to compete against other companies and be the best, which is what Indycar fans have been complaining about what's been missing from Indycar since God knows how long, and now the new plan seeks to resolve this and it's a bad thing to some people here?

In reality, the car represents all of the following ideals merged into one from the five proposals:

-the DeltaWing private ingenuity concept where it's open to anyone
-the common tub that all carmakers except DeltaWing had
-the Lola different bodies on offer so that the cars look different on the outside
-the reason for the DeltaWing 3-wheel design to stop wheel-to-wheel contract leading to have winglets around the wheel to hinder Conway wrecks from occurring

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

claus. I didn't hear or read anything from the IRL that mentioned the mushrrom buster at all, and Swift was not discussed as a continuing participant. I asked Swift on Facebook today, they are often cooperative, and they have not answered yet.

If that's the case, then I'm a little disappointed.

[Jonerz]

I wonder if the Daytona Prototype might also find its manufacturing moved to the new Indianapolis digs.

Also, are there any technical regulations to come out with this announcement? Certainly they have to have specific numbers (lengths, widths, heights) for body work, wings and other aerodynamic appendages. Otherwise there will be great unrest when a Penske, Ganassi, or Lola come out with some trick new bodywork. It's the old F1 problem of the engineers not being mad that the piece is illegal, but they're mad that they didn't come up with it first and thus they will protest it to death.

I don't mean this as an argument against development or multiple manufacturers, it will just be hard when the IRL is giving the green light to new pieces. Maybe it is all moot when actual technical regulations are released or maybe the fact that the part needs to be cheap and available to all teams that is the genius behind the rules. Hopefully we'll see more copy-catting of parts and less 'we'll just take the exact same parts'.

I can't help but feel that IndyCar teams are still feeling the hurt of the 12 years war and the economy isn't helping - that could mean the intellectual as well as capital wherewithal to innovate might not be there. Having Lola, Swift, and Dallara responsible for the development might have been better.

Maybe all three will be involved anyways. I just can't get my mind around this being anything but a Dallara-Honda spec series with perhaps a Ganassi and Penske chassis as the alternative. Again, THAT could be the genius of the rules, if Penske or Ganassi start producing go-fast bits to put on the car, or their own bodywork and for all intensive purposes their own "chassis" (despite the chassis always being a Dallara) maybe that will inspire competition. It is a gamble, though, both teams might just wind tunnel the cars so that the Dallara body work is the closest fitting it can be and the wing mirrors are the most aerodynamic and so forth - sound familiar? Spec series...

I guess what I mean to say is, the rules can go either way.

Chris

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by Flyin Ryan

This place never ceases to amaze me.

See, this is example A on why I just don't respect the opinions of the majority of people that post on message boards. There are some people that show themselves to be intelligent, but they're few. This is just bi tching for the sake of bi tching. Here, Indycar has made it so that even poor little me with few resources except I know a couple people in the business and in the aviation industry, can make the components to bolt on a car and I can have a shot to have my car race at Indy, therefore it was heavily democratized. That was why I wanted all along to go to tubeframes, because very few people have the capability to do a composite tub if you have to build the whole car, and therefore you're paying a premium for their capability because it's an oligarchy, and if you want multiple carmakers within that existing oligarchy, the economics are entirely out of whack so that you could only have one car constructer with a monopoly for it to make business sense. So they went down one thing from tubeframes because they wanted to have a composite cell for safety reasons, so "the cell is standardized, but everyone can do their own body". And this is painted as a bad thing because teams are going to prioritize going fastest? People talk about the "innovation and ingenuity" spirit of Indy and this allows a small person like Smokey Yunick or a big shot like Roger Penske or Andy Granatelli as we have seen in the past to come in and do their own thing, and this is wrong because "well, what about the aero wake?" So you'd rather have one car and one engine? No, because if they did that, you'd b itch as well.

What does that matter if the racing is crap because no one can pass? He has a point, the IR5 did everything it needed to do but look good, and the people that think the IR5 is the sole reason IndyCar is in the ****ter, and that by moving to a new chassis, whatever their favorite was, would lead people to IndyCar by the masses is out of touch. New people won't care much about what the car looks like, as long as it looks like a car. They care(I've said this once today so, if you've already read it, just move to the bottom of the page) about the nut behind the wheel and the lump that spits cool flames and sounds like a chorus of God's belches. That's what will bring new guys in. The chassis is for us that are already in the fold.

Part of having a good aero kit is you'll have to handle the turbulent air in front of you from the cars in front.

Yes, because that solution is just so easy. Are you an aerodynamicist? Because plenty of F1 teams could use your expertise.



That is unless you haven't actually come up with a solution.

[JagtechOhio]

"They're allowed to play with certain parts but the new package will enable them to design a completely different aero package: wings, sidepods, undertray, everything."

I guess it's easier to approve of the rules when you make them up to suit your opinion. The last thing the IRL would permit teams to do is design their own undertray. If "everything" means "engine cover", then you got it all figured out.



BARNHART: "The aero kit we're talking about will include the front wings, not the nose, but it will include the front wings, both side pods, the engine cover and the rear wings."

The "safety cell" supplied by Dallara is a rolling chassis, with spec gearbox, with or without the spec bodywork at the customer's discretion. No suspension mods permitted.

No dimensions for any of the above components have been specified. The determination of stressed/ non-stressed engine architecture has not even been verified, although Honda has already made their design choice clear.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

"They're allowed to play with certain parts but the new package will enable them to design a completely different aero package: wings, sidepods, undertray, everything."

I guess it's easier to approve of the rules when you make them up to suit your opinion. The last thing the IRL would permit teams to do is design their own undertray. If "everything" means "engine cover", then you got it all figured out.



BARNHART: "The aero kit we're talking about will include the front wings, not the nose, but it will include the front wings, both side pods, the engine cover and the rear wings."

The "safety cell" supplied by Dallara is a rolling chassis, with spec gearbox, with or without the spec bodywork at the customer's discretion. No suspension mods permitted.

No dimensions for any of the above components have been specified. The determination of stressed/ non-stressed engine architecture has not even been verified, although Honda has already made their design choice clear.

Which was?

[fieldodreams79]

looking at the track record, I guess we can expect the IRL use the same Dallara chassis from 2012 until 2022.

yippee.

[6157]

I don't see how 2012 will turn out to be an all-Dallara series. It can't. It'll require a whole new aero package, a fresh slate, Dallara will have some advantage but how much can it be with essentially a 10 year old package? Lola's started from scratch before, it shouldn't stop them now. If Newman-Haas is still around, there's at least one team that will run a Lola. Swift is a question mark. Can they afford to competitively design an aero package that teams will want to run? It would be nice.

Now for the "anti-spec" crowd, it is completely illogical, and you're a moron if you do, to blame the IRL for it turning into a all-Dallara series or a all-Lola series or a all-fruit fly series. The concept is here, the rules will follow, it's up to the manufacturers to compete.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

This is $349K Dallara roller (with gearbox). Teams are not free to build suspensions.

It's $385k with the Dallara body kit fitted.

so, that is a $36K for the body work. that seems cheap, really cheap for a modern, state of the art racing car, no?

what am i missing?

[6157]

Originally Posted by JagtechOhio

"They're allowed to play with certain parts but the new package will enable them to design a completely different aero package: wings, sidepods, undertray, everything."

I guess it's easier to approve of the rules when you make them up to suit your opinion. The last thing the IRL would permit teams to do is design their own undertray. If "everything" means "engine cover", then you got it all figured out.



BARNHART: "The aero kit we're talking about will include the front wings, not the nose, but it will include the front wings, both side pods, the engine cover and the rear wings."

The "safety cell" supplied by Dallara is a rolling chassis, with spec gearbox, with or without the spec bodywork at the customer's discretion. No suspension mods permitted.

No dimensions for any of the above components have been specified. The determination of stressed/ non-stressed engine architecture has not even been verified, although Honda has already made their design choice clear.

And I guess you have to make it up as you go along otherwise what will you have to blog about?

No one said the rules would be released, no one said specific specs would be released but you know it all, YOU'RE A BLOGGER. Thank god we have bloggers around to tell us the IRL won't have any rules package by then. IT'S A FAILURE!

Like I said: Amazed at the lack of understanding.

[6157]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

so, that is a $36K for the body work. that seems cheap, really cheap for a modern, state of the art racing car, no?

what am i missing?

That's the point. The blogger thinks this is still 1994 and the teams are all just swimming in money as if they have a 20-story vault like Scrooge McDuck and they can just SPEND SPEND SPEND.

The price won't represent whats spent on development or how developed the packages are, it's simply the need for lower costs mandated by the IRL.

[JagtechOhio]

What was announced today is exactly what was announced on June 2 when the framework for the engine specifications were mandated.

These are open invitations, nothing more. In both cases, the existing business partner has accepted a guaranteed contract.

EVERYONE is cordially invited to design, prototype, and submit an engine or body kit for testing and approval....so long as they also meet IRL mandated price caps, schedule deadlines, and demonstrate their ability to supply the entire field...

And if they do it all on their dime, unless teams are willing to place advance orders for a non-existent product that is of unknown competitve value against the spec package. There is no guarante that they will sell anything. See "Falcon", 2002.

That could mean four other alternate engines. Or zero.
That could mean four other alternate body kits. Or zero.

As of today, this is a new spec Dallara/ Honda, and the old engines and chassis are worthless as of Oct, 2011. The deadline for additional engine submissions is October 2, 2010.

The deadline for body kits has not been stated, although they must fit a tub design which has not been finalized, and the kits must fit tubs that will be built in a factory which does not yet exist.


The Honda 2.4L twin turbo V6 is a bespoke stressed arcitecture. So the Dallara tub will be designed for that, and alternate engine plarforms will have to be adapted IF and when they are approved.

That means the chassis could be designed for a non- stressed engine, and additional mount brackets bolted on the side of the Honda.

For the business savvy posters, particularly the ones who have been reading the "New Chassis" thread since it began (or my worthless blog), the following quote will look familiar. Only this time the author is Paul Tracy, and he wrote it today.


paultracy3
Insider
Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 198
"2012 will cost a extra 1 million"

"At this point I am told to run a 1 car deal . Allready owning the cars and some spares cost about 4.5 -5 mil . That has some crash damage built into the budget and no driver salary unles you finish in the top 5 where it pays well . 2 new cars some spares and a extra wing body kit from another suplyer will add about 1 million to the season budget ... So where is the reduction in cost I ask ?????"

[JagtechOhio]

Hey 6157: either you can't read, or you are going to continue to ignore the facts and write whatever you want about what you think the rules are, and what you think my statements mean.

Knock yourself out.

[ptclaus98]

Do you think we might see a last minute allowance of the IR5 if some teams cant pay the bills for the new car?

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by 6157

That's the point. The blogger thinks this is still 1994 and the teams are all just swimming in money as if they have a 20-story vault like Scrooge McDuck and they can just SPEND SPEND SPEND.

The price won't represent whats spent on development or how developed the packages are, it's simply the need for lower costs mandated by the IRL.

You have completely missed his point if that's what you truly believe.

[JagtechOhio]

Field, the $36K is the added cost of the new spec Dallara body kit if you buy it with your new spec Dallara chassis.

The price cap for body kits from alternate suppliers is $70K. So all R&D costs will have to be recouped by the prospective supplier from the sales volume at this low price point, provided they receive any orders.

Did you see the 2012 Lola 50% scale wind tunnel model on display Tuesday? They went down the same road in 2002, and it cost them close to $1M for a design that wasn't approved.

Now they have an aero profile to fit their own tub, which will not be approved. It is an aero profile designed to reduce wake turbulence and encourage passing, since all of the designers based their proposal on a sole supplier contract.

Nobody signed up for competition against other designs. That parameter changed today. Today's invitation is for competitors, not partners.

Does Lola have an incentive to design and produce low volume, low profit body panels to fit to their competitor's tub? And then have to stay in an arms race with other body kit suppliers to maintain a competitive advantage... or lose their sales?

Peanuts. Lola has aerospace work to do, and other race cars of their own to build. So does Swift. If Ashmore gambles on winning some market share, maybe he submits a kit for approval and hopes for orders. Maybe a bunch of people do, maybe none.

Boeing? Lockheed/ Martin? I'll take their word on their participation, not Tony Purnell's invitation to them as a affirmative.

[JagtechOhio]

claus, what sort of timetable the IRL finalizes, and how well they and their suppliers can keep to it, is anybody's guess. Barnhart speculated chassis by Nov. 2011 and built new cars by January 2012.

There has been ZERO official word of continued use of the current chassis past 2011, and Barnhard today stated that this was not an option.

There has been ZERO official word that a Honda V8 will run in an IndyCar after Oct. 2011.

What happens as the deadline approaches? And will there be 66 new chassis (and body kits) by May 2012? Today, the IRL said:no problem.

Did you hear from Ganassi, Penske, Barnes, Kalkhoven, George, et al today? I heard the Delta Wing group get a little lip service, and then get dismissed flat out.

We'll see how that flies.

[6157]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

You have completely missed his point if that's what you truly believe.

Any point he makes should just generally be disregarded. He's a fan masquerading as an insider based on the sole fact that he was self-published on one of the lowliest regarded blogs.

[JagtechOhio]

I would hope that nobody else here thinks I have ever claimed to be an "insider", since I have never made that claim. There is a very clear statement to that affect on my worthless blog as well.

If I call an engine builder or race car engineer on the phone, and he states factual information, I will sometimes repeat the conversation in print. Try it yourself, most of these people will talk to you as soon as they know you have a clue.

Everything else I write everywhere is based on direct quotes that I read, and then cite for anyone's verification. That's called "homework".

Here is additional detail about the chassis formula, most of which was announced today. It is reprinted from Trackforum and took place about two hours ago. None of the words are mine.

Tony Cottman Q&A on Twitter

New #IZODIndycar has more horsepower, is 185 lbs lighter, produces far more downforce from underbody therefore will be significantly quicker

Indycar4life - will teams be able to test the aero packages before making a final decision for the season?

Teams can not test aero kits before making decision but kits will be available for all to evaluate prior to purchase.

TeamCanada1 - Will it mean braking in corners on ovals? Will it mean better pass opps for streets/roadies> If so, Tony, I'm in!

Yes increased passing opps on roads with new #Indycar, 1.5m oval still flat-will use less horsepower, short ovals have to brake

indy44 - Will teams be allowed to design and manufacture their own aero kits? What gearbox will be used?

teams will be able to design and manufacture their own areo kits provided they're available to others. Gearbox make undecided

PhilRoof8 - Could a 2 car team buy 4 aero-kits so long as each car only had access to 2? That'd teach alot 4 a house built kit 4 nxt sson

No a 2 car team can't buy 4 kits. Imagine how many Andretti could have, they're already lost enough.

EJGoose - Will there be an onboard starter for the car?

Onboard starter for new #indycar has been discussed at length. Tried electric one in Champ Car to no avail. Looking at all options.

PhilRoof8 - Those are really dramatic cost savings. How'd you get them?

Significant cost savings achieved by building a car for both roads and ovals from the beginning and many prices dictated by IRL.

WhateverJoel - What are 2 kits? Road/oval or Lola/Swift. Also, if Lola wants to update mid-season does that count towards a second kit?

A teams 2 kits can be made up of any configuration, by manufacturer or type of circuit

WhateverJoel - So if Lola designs a road kit and an oval kit, those are the two kits a team could run?

If Lola designs a road kit and oval kit those are 2 of the choices teams could run - yes