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Old 9 Nov 2007, 10:07 (Ref:2063628)   #1
Asp
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Twice Speeding = Ban?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7086290.stm

When I first heard this story I was automatically annoyed on the basis of yet more victimisation of the poor motorist.

But reading the story it makes a bit more sense - the faster you go, the more points you get. If you're caught creeping over 30mph, then you'll get the standard 3pts as present; if you're going at 45mph you'll get 6pts and an increased fine.

Good idea or not?
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Old 9 Nov 2007, 10:21 (Ref:2063636)   #2
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Seems to be no different to the current set up really, in terms of the likely points you'll receive. The key difference is that for excessive speeds (i.e. over around 50% above the limit) the facility will exist for upto 6 points via a fixed penalty rather than a summons and court.

So in fact, it's an efficiency/cost saving measure rather than a road safety one.

There will still be a ceiling I would think, above which a summons and a charge of dangerous/careless driving would be relevant.
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Old 9 Nov 2007, 12:40 (Ref:2063707)   #3
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my mum was busted doing 45 in a 30, and i was surprised to find she only got 3 points and the standard fine. personally, i think speeding above the tolerance in a 30mph limit should be an instant 6 point offence - it's inexcusable and unnecessary.
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Old 9 Nov 2007, 18:46 (Ref:2063961)   #4
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Agreed and it should be doubled again to 12 points for those who do 45 on perfectly clear, open, straight national speed limit 60mph roads in good conditions and then proceed to do 45 in the 30 that follows.
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Old 9 Nov 2007, 19:16 (Ref:2063976)   #5
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Agreed and it should be doubled again to 12 points for those who do 45 on perfectly clear, open, straight national speed limit 60mph roads in good conditions and then proceed to do 45 in the 30 that follows.
Yes, yes, yes!

I'm a laid back chap, but that does my head in. It's my personal road bugbear. Along with people not keeping up with traffic.
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Old 9 Nov 2007, 20:05 (Ref:2063985)   #6
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In Ont. if you are 50k over you lose your car on the spot for 7 days, your licence is suspended and the max. fine is $10,000.00. Your insurance will go out of sight. Ontario's top cop wants it lowered to 30K over. On an 80k road if you pass someone doing 75 it is easy to hit more than 110k just to get past without a head on.
I have a thread on this in Parc Ferme.
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Old 11 Nov 2007, 00:06 (Ref:2064712)   #7
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And over here, they have speed cameras in and around schools, with the limits varying depending on the time of day....

Something as silly as 50 in a nominated for the minute 40 zone is a 4 point hit (out of 12) and $132 fine...

So do one of those on our lovely double demerit points periods... and you lose 2/3 of your licence points....

Me.. I go the back way to avoid the bloody things
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Old 11 Nov 2007, 00:31 (Ref:2064721)   #8
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The media has spun this story to suit themselves, watching any of the news channels you'd think they were starting to give out 6 points for doing 31mph in a 30 limit.

Infact I think it's a great proposal - in my mind if you were caught doing 45 in a 30 you should be happy to have got away with 6 points.

I always stick to the lower speed limits, they are there for the protection of pedestrians, the 70 limits tend to be places you don't get many people crossing the road.
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Old 11 Nov 2007, 06:01 (Ref:2064784)   #9
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic
And over here, they have speed cameras in and around schools, with the limits varying depending on the time of day....

Something as silly as 50 in a nominated for the minute 40 zone is a 4 point hit (out of 12) and $132 fine...

So do one of those on our lovely double demerit points periods... and you lose 2/3 of your licence points....

Me.. I go the back way to avoid the bloody things
This is all because the vastly intelligent people who design & build towns and cities all thought it was a great idea to put schools on main roads, not down a side street.
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Old 11 Nov 2007, 14:18 (Ref:2064975)   #10
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My concern is that it's very arbitrary.
Speed doesn't kill, despite the publicity. Excess / Inappropriate speed for the conditions kills. The faster the speed, the more dangerous and inappropriate it's likely to be.

If you drive at 45 past a school at 3:30pm on a weekday (OK, practically not possible with Chelsea Tractors parked on the kerb so little Johnny doesn't have to strain his legs an entire 100yards, but theoretically), so should be hit with the full arm of the law.
Driving past the same school at 7am on a Sunday morning at 45 when there's no houses in the same area is unlikely to constitute dangerous driving.

Of course, cameras have no discretion...
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Old 13 Nov 2007, 20:04 (Ref:2066790)   #11
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Originally Posted by Asp
If you drive at 45 past a school at 3:30pm on a weekday (OK, practically not possible with Chelsea Tractors parked on the kerb so little Johnny doesn't have to strain his legs an entire 100yards, but theoretically), so should be hit with the full arm of the law.
Driving past the same school at 7am on a Sunday morning at 45 when there's no houses in the same area is unlikely to constitute dangerous driving.

Of course, cameras have no discretion...

In my opinion this is a very naive and potentially dangerous argument, road systems within 30mph zones are designed around that limit most of the time nowadays, what I mean is you can have a blind exit out onto a 30mph road with just enough vision so as that if you pull out and someone is doing around the 30mph limit then they will allways have time to adjust their speed without the need to pull up sharpely, whereas if they are doing 50% over that limit then they would not be able to stop in time.
Time of day takes no presidence in this argument the School mentioned above may have one of these factors as well within that same 30mph zone.

Last edited by Paddockman; 13 Nov 2007 at 20:06.
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Old 13 Nov 2007, 20:12 (Ref:2066798)   #12
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As far as killing children outside schools goes, whatever happened to education? There used to be something called the Green Cross Code and other road safety education programs for children.
All we seem to be doing is saying kids can don't have to be responsible for their own actions but everyone else does.
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Old 13 Nov 2007, 20:49 (Ref:2066831)   #13
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very true Tim....!

I'm with Asp to a point on this one as well, especially about driving to conditions.
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Old 14 Nov 2007, 10:15 (Ref:2067164)   #14
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Originally Posted by Paddockman
Time of day takes no presidence in this argument the School mentioned above may have one of these factors as well within that same 30mph zone.
may
My argument was very theoretical, that's why I said "unlikely". A combination of all the factors - road conditions, time of day, width of road, buildings in the area etc. etc. - is what should be used to calculate an appropriate speed.
Sometimes it's below the statutory maximum, but it's still the fastest you should travel at.
Sometimes it's above the statutory maximum - going above the speed limit in such situations is not 'dangerous' (although, it's still breaking the law!).

That's why I don't like cameras, all they'll see if people travelling above the speed limit. Travelling at 39mph in a 40 limit in the pouring rain outside a school at the end of the school-day, a couple of feet behind the car in front of you won't get caught by the camera, but it's infinitely more dangerous than travelling past it at 50 on a bright sunny Sunday morning (depending, as you rightly say, on the other factors that might be present)!
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Old 14 Nov 2007, 12:01 (Ref:2067227)   #15
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exactly....the school run Mums who come up the [single way] lane to the village seem to think they can drive at the speed limit [50 I believe for a single way lane? Whatever, was far too fast for visibility / conditions...] when in day light you don't want to hit more than 25 / 30 max in places as blind corners and you can't see because of hedges....

which is why the below is so correct

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Sometimes it's below the statutory maximum, but it's still the fastest you should travel at.
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Old 9 Dec 2007, 08:32 (Ref:2084718)   #16
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Portsmouth has introduced a limit of 20 mph on most of its non through route roads. Motorists appear to obey it despite the absence of "safety" cameras and it is my understanding that no speeding tickets have been issued (as of late October). I believe most motorists are responsible and drive at a limit suited to the area and weather conditions. In Hampshire this is hampered by speed limits of 40 on single lanes, then 30 on dual, 40 approaching a roundabout all within a mile - no logic and of course lots of fines, for where better to put up a portable "safety" camera.
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Old 9 Dec 2007, 09:29 (Ref:2084744)   #17
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Getting back to the original post, if you read the BBC report
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The worst offenders, such as those doing 45mph in a 30mph zone, could have six points added to their licence.

This could result a driving ban - given when 12 points are accumulated within three years - for just two offences
The word is COULD which is no different to what happens now. I have just been sent an NIP for 39mph in a 30 limit and have been offered a speed awareness coures, I could have got 3 points so it's still discretionary.
The main difference is that at 45 in a 30mph zone you have to be taken to court to be given 6 points, I think double the limit could be a ban. With the new system they would free up court time and make it 6 points on a fixed penalty notice.
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Old 9 Dec 2007, 17:33 (Ref:2084941)   #18
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As an ex JP I would agree that freeing up court time is advantageous, however the important thing is to have the appropriate speed limit legally imposed and respected by motorists.
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Old 9 Dec 2007, 23:59 (Ref:2085182)   #19
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Spot on LYNX. The mounting problems are not just to do with camera enforcement, but enforcement of increasingly inappropriate limits.

Fully support the 20mph non through route scheme though - that's where speed limits SHOULD be lower and SHOULD be enforced - not on all the open rural roads that mysteriously keep getting hit with 50mph limits.
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Old 16 Dec 2007, 12:00 (Ref:2089886)   #20
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I live near a school on a 30mph limit and if I drive past during the day I'll knock it down to 20 as I pass.
(I'm sure double parking is illegal.... esp for landrovers )

But when it's 2a.m., nothing about (suburbia) and freezing out - is it wrong to cruise past at 40?
Inappropriate speed is dangerous, but more than that, an unobservant driver is dangerous regardless of what speed they are doing.
That should be taken into account somehow if you were to be stopped for 'excessive' speed

One time I was in a 40 zone and overtaking some kids in a fizzy doing 30 or so. As I was 3/4 past they sped up so I had to bump the power to finish my maneuvre safely before an upcoming corner. As I got passed there was a Van in a sideroad .... and on went the blues
Cop pulled me and I explained what happened, but as I was "over the 40 limit" there followed some finger wagging.
He said that there was a council estate nearby and the teenagers often get drunk and could be staggering about by the road.
I tried not to laugh, but shouldn't that be dealt with rather than hassling me because I tried to overtake someone safely?
Treat the cause rather than the symptom?

I couldn't help but think there may be some Darwinian justice should my car get splattered with intoxicated burberry claret. As long as I didn't leave any tyremarks on the pavement
(yes I am joking ....)
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Old 18 Dec 2007, 20:28 (Ref:2091501)   #21
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There is no doubt that excessive speed kills. The question as to applying local speed limits on a time basis complicates the issue further. Flashing amber lights in school approaches during school hours is one practise adopted by some authorities with a reduction to 20 mph. Outside these hours the speed limit is as for the rest of the road. Really, as one senior policeman has just discovered, we are all tempted to speed when the road is clear - however that can lead to points on the licence - or worse, an accident caused in part or in full by our own actions. I suggest we keep speed for the track and obey the law - though there is no reason why everyone shouldn't campaign to have the limits changed where they seem redundant or incorrect. Clear markings would also help as having to count the distance between lamposts only detracts from driving.
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Old 9 Jan 2008, 15:52 (Ref:2102667)   #22
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I'm all for increasing the 'top' level of points for excessive speeding... if only they'd scale it properly so that (when I get booked by a jobsworth ON THE WAY TO THE HOSPITAL for doing 48MPH on a 40MPH dual carriageway I only get 1-2 points and a mildly condesending chat, rather than 3 points and the full lecture).
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Old 11 Jan 2008, 18:55 (Ref:2104381)   #23
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Slightly off topic, but the school scenario is such a good (?) one. Double parking, teaching Children to cross between parked cars, parking on junctions etc is a big problem where I live.

A call to the local headmistress results in being told "it is not my responsibility as it is outside of the school gates"! At this location, 10 mph is probably as fast as you would want to go.
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Old 12 Jan 2008, 17:03 (Ref:2104805)   #24
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A call to the local headmistress results in being told "it is not my responsibility as it is outside of the school gates"!
Oh dear, thankfully the head at my daughter's school is a bit more proactive, she's often outside the school herself giving morons an earful and has organised for a couple of 'community police' to be there when they can. Wost offenders are cab and taxi drivers- where in the Highway Code does it say that they can park where they like with no consideration for the law, other road users or pedestians?
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Old 13 Jan 2008, 09:46 (Ref:2105132)   #25
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where in the Highway Code does it say that they can park where they like with no consideration for the law, other road users or pedestians?
I think it's in the Urdu version...
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