Driver training

[EvilPumpkin]

Hi guys,

Hope you don't mind me stopping by - it's a reciprocal visit for those of you that stop by the marshals forum!

I have a question.

At any time during the year - or when you first get your racing licence or however it works - are you ever given a talk, training, notes, leaflet....something anyway - that tells you how to deal with being involved in an incident?

Stuff like "if you're upside down, don't release the seatbelts" or what to do to help if another driver is in worse shape than you are? Do you get told to leave it to the marshals? Do you get told anything at all?

I have a good reason for asking and I'd be interested in your experiences - and whether you think there is a need for something like this if it's not already in place.

Ta

EP

[Peter Mallett]

For my part I've had a licence so long that I never did the ARDs course so I don't know if that is part of the qualification for a licence. However, from experience I've undone my seatbelts when upside down and laughed about it afterwards. Well not only did I need a new helmet I needed a new car too.

I've also been in a car fire and got the hell out before any marshals reached me. (They put the fire out pretty quickly though).

In essence I think its common sense to leave it to the experts but there are times when a driver may be the nearest person to an incident and will try to help as much as possible. (Thoughts of James Hunt Monza 1977 spring to mind).

[EvilPumpkin]

Yes Peter, I totally agree - what I'm wondering is if anyone ever tells you the best way to help or if it's just something you have to try to figure out on your own - and whether there's a place for even one talk a year on the basics of dealing with an incident?

[Peter Mallett]

Well, you might have a point. Nobody has ever briefed me on the best way to help and I suggest that goes for most drivers. Of course some marshals drive (Peter Weston from Thruxton races a Metro) and I would think that causes him a real conflict in an incident. It would me.

[EvilPumpkin]

So it's something you think might be useful then?

I know quite a few marshals and ex-marshals that race - I've never heard of any of them having an issue - I think it very much depends on the incident and where you are at the time. A marshal racing is probably more likely to be willing to leave it to the attending marshals - but if he/she has come off at the same time, I would imagine they'd give a helping hand.

Having said that, it does add another dimension as you get to know the drivers. I don't believe it affects my performance as a marshal, but it does make a difference to how I feel at a serious incident if it's someone I know.

[DAVID PATERSON]

In Australia, prior to obtaining your racing licence, you must attend a lecture hosted by an experienced driver and a senior marshal. I had my lecture 13 years ago, so I'm unsure of the content, but I believe they do include something about what to do when it all goes wrong.

I think it's a good idea and obviously a refresher is in order for those of us who've been at it a long time.

[Dave Brand]

Good question, EP!

Novice drivers now have the opportunity to obtain an upgrade signature by doing a day's marshalling; in my opinion, this should be compulsory.

Recent experiences have shown that not all drivers appreciate why we handle incidents the way we do. Spending a day on the bank, or attending a marshals' training session would let them see just how dangerous the situations they put us in can be, & how we work in such a way as to minimise the risks.

Safety is the keyword......drivers may want us to push-start their cars facing the wrong way in the middle of a chicane (yes, it's happened!) or to allow them to fiddle with the car on the off-chance that it may restart; our priority is to get car, driver &, above all, ourselves, to a safe place as quickly as possible.

I must emphasise that, in my limited experience, most drivers have been very appreciative of our efforts. On occasion things have been said in the heat of the moment which would have been better left unsaid; that's understandable - I'd be too!

[DAVID PATERSON]

Dave, here in Australia, it has recently been made compulsory that all novice drivers must spend one day as a flag marshall. Personally, I think it's a great idea. I believe two days would be good.

[theracegypsy]

Interestingly there are a lot of grass roots comments in the US that a day on the bank should be compusory for not only drivers, but also senior officials, so they don't get out of touch.

[Lee Janotta]

"Aim for something that won't sue" seems to be the rule of thumb here.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by DAVID PATERSON
Dave, here in Australia, it has recently been made compulsory that all novice drivers must spend one day as a flag marshall. Personally, I think it's a great idea. I believe two days would be good.

I'd insist that they spend a wet day at Druids at Oulton Park with Formula Fords on the programme - that'd let 'em see what marshalling's all about!

(Druids is a fairly tight double-apex righthander, with a nice big gravel trap & it's sheltered by trees so that it stays damp long after other parts of the circuit have dried.)

[bolide]

I second that about Druids - I was taking photos there last year when the heavens opened and cars started flying off the track into the gravel. I was sheltering in the marshals post and got a first-hand view of the action; each time a car went off, the marshal who stays in the post (one always stays...) would phone race control to report it. Over 10 minutes, it went: "Race Control? Car Number 11 in the gravel trap at Druids... Car number 21... Car number 14... Car number 26... Car number 43... Car number 65... Car number 66 - the gravel trap is now full!

Amazingly, even with 7 cars off the circuit, no-one hit anyone else in the gravel trap and no-one was bruised, let alone injured

It was amusing for the onlookers, but clearly very tense and hard work for the marshals who had to observe, record and recover every incident despite the race (and rain) continuing around them

I learnt a lot that day. Standing where the marshals do (as I do as Press) gets you so much closer to the action - and gives you far more respect fpr their professionalism

Nick Froome
www.bolide.co.uk

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by bolide
each time a car went off, the marshal who stays in the post (one always stays...) would phone race control to report it

The one who stays in the box is the observer. He (or she) is in charge of the post, recording every incident & requesting medical assistance, rescue units, race stops, etc., as required. At many meetings at Oulton you'll see more than one observer in the box, & many posts will have what is commonly known as a telephonist, but is officially an assistant observer, who in effect acts as the observers' secretary.

It was amusing for the onlookers, but clearly very tense and hard work for the marshals who had to observe, record and recover every incident despite the race (and rain) continuing around them

It's one of those situations where you've got to be very aware of what's going on around you - if one's gone in, another one (or more) can follow.

I learnt a lot that day. Standing where the marshals do (as I do as Press) gets you so much closer to the action - and gives you far more respect fpr their professionalism

A good reason why all drivers should spend a day marshalling! Marshals may be volunteers, but we take pride in doing the job in a professional manner - a less than professional approach would compromise safety.

[EvilPumpkin]

This is all excellent stuff guys - but just getting back to the original point - do the drivers themselves feel that they would benefit either from a day on the bank, some sort of training session - or better still both - at the beginning of each season?

[Tony Harman]

V good point EP - yes I think drivers would benefit from some instruction on what to do in case of an incident, maybe it could be done at a compulsory drivers briefing at the first meeting of the year. I also support the idea of every driver spending a day marshaling once per year.

[bolide]

Mr Pumpkin


Yes, yes, and yes. Although there is a good incentive (1 signature) for new racers to spend a day as a marshal, IMHO it wouldn't hurt for all drivers to spend a day a year at it

Regarding accident training - we all get a New Driver's Briefing at circuits we've not driven before, so why not an accident briefing tagged onto that? the only drawback I see is that race days are very time-limited and it would be difficult toi schedule

And why isn't it part of ARDS "training"?

Nick Froome
www.bolide.co.uk

[EvilPumpkin]

Well lads and lasses, if this is something you want - TELL YOUR CLASS REP! I'm sure you'd have no difficulty getting experienced marshals down to the locality of your choice to have a chat - but if you don't ask, you don't get.

This is something I'm hoping to propose here in Ireland - we have had a couple of issues lately that makes me think it's badly needed for driver safety. What I wasn't sure about was whether drivers felt it was needed.

[MaxxUK]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
This is all excellent stuff guys - but just getting back to the original point - do the drivers themselves feel that they would benefit either from a day on the bank, some sort of training session - or better still both - at the beginning of each season?

I certainly do although I'm not sure it's needed every year. I had to take ARDS when I got back into racing again this year and there was no mention of what to do in an incident and I think it should at least form part of the "Go Racing" video/documentation.

That wouldn't get to all existing drivers of course but at least it's a start. I applaud the initiative that allows a day on a marshal post to count as a signature but it gave no information on how that might be arranged. I was hoping to do one but I emailed a couple of marshal organisations and got no reply frmo either. I have heard since that you could arrabge it via the event organiser (contact details on entry form). I don't need the signature any more but I'd still like to do one (preferably next summer now - ok, so I'm a wussy driver who doesn't like the cold & rain )

[EvilPumpkin]

MaxxUK - what circuit would you like to marshal at. I guarantee you I can get you a response from someone here in pretty short order!

[MaxxUK]

EP,

Donington or Mallory are best for me, I might still be able to fit in a day this year although I'm quite busy racing and instructing and have a holiday coming up (21.09 to 05.10).

Would like to do it though so please let me know.

[Stone-kicker]

Not much left at Mallory, 29th Sept, BARC and 20th Oct 750MC.
Donington still has British Touring Cars 20, 21, 22 Sept, European Touring Cars 4, 5, 6 Oct, JCC 20th Oct (I'm Chief Marshal so he would be most welcome at this one!), 26/27 Oct BRSCC plus various Winter series meetings if you are as hardy/mad/sad as us!

I can supply contact details as required.

[EvilPumpkin]

There you go Maxx - response within 5 hours - told ya!

Thanks to Stone-kicker and brickkicker for the fast response

[MaxxUK]

Stone-kicker : Thanks for that info, saves me having to look it up. For purely selfish reasons the BTCC and ETCC races at DP would have been very tempting but I'm away on Holiday at the time. 20.10 is a possible at the moment as I've nothing booked that day but don't want to block it just yet but if nothing comes in before I go away on 21.09 then that sounds ideal.

EP : Thanks, I replied to Brick-kicker by PM.

[Kev Smith]

Malcolm

Pity you did not post last week you could have done Sunday at croft after your race on Sat you would have been made most welcome