[Tech Issue] BBC's Andrew Benson on Twitter : KERS and adjustable rear wings next year

[Wrex]

The return of KERS. Hmmm.

Can someone please point out a great battle last year where KERS improved the racing between 2 cars with KERS?

KERS only assisted drivers when they were racing cars without KERS. While I like the idea of KERS, it will not improve the racing in its current form. You are trying to overtake me. You hit your boost button, I hit my boost button. Please tell me how that is different to not having a boost button.

By having an amount of Boost available lap in lap out, it becomes pointless. However, if you limit the amount of Boost available for a race (30, 60, 90 seconds whatever), you could end up with cars battling with different amounts of KERS available.

If you leave it the way it is, pointless.

[JamesH]

Not pointless from a technology development point of view. One of the few parts of F1 that may have some road relevance.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by Wrex

The return of KERS. Hmmm.

Can someone please point out a great battle last year where KERS improved the racing between 2 cars with KERS?

KERS only assisted drivers when they were racing cars without KERS. While I like the idea of KERS, it will not improve the racing in its current form. You are trying to overtake me. You hit your boost button, I hit my boost button. Please tell me how that is different to not having a boost button.

By having an amount of Boost available lap in lap out, it becomes pointless. However, if you limit the amount of Boost available for a race (30, 60, 90 seconds whatever), you could end up with cars battling with different amounts of KERS available.

If you leave it the way it is, pointless.

Yeh i've thought this a few times before, actually.

The thing we must avoid is everyone using it in the same place, such as we saw in 2009. Unfortunately, the teams will probably calculate before they even get to the circuit as to where exactly KERS will benefit.

If everyone is using it in the same parts of the track, every time per lap, then you're right - it's completely pointless.

Selby

[Marbot]

Some would argue that KERS is already being developed successfully by companies outside of F1 and in a direction that is more in keeping with the every day needs of public use.

From an entertainment point of view, just allowing the drivers to turn up the rpms every now and then would have much the same effect.

Technlogy is great, but not just for the sake of it.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Marbot

KERS to make bigger difference next year.

But not as much as hoped, and some are not happy.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84543

I must admit I rather enjoyed KERS last year, because some cars had it and others didn't. There seemed to be a choice to be made. If you had it you you would have the power advantage, e.g. Ferrari and McLaren, but you had to cope with the weight distribution problem, which meant that you would not have such a well-handling car. Those that didn't have it, e.g. Brawn and Red Bull, could optimise their cars' handling instead and that turned out to be the better way to go.

However all my thinking changed at the beginning of this year. Someone kindly gave me a ticket to the Prof. Sidney Watkins lecture at the Autosport show and the speaker was Adrian Newey. It was actually more a Q&A session between him and Maurice Hamilton and absolutely fascinating because Adrian didn't hold anything back

The subject of KERS came up and he was totally opposed to it and very relieved it had been banned for this season for a reason that hadn't occurred to me before. Safety.

Apparently before a Marshal can work on a KERS-equipped car safely he has to be wearing special gloves and there is a switch on the car that has to be turned off to deactivate the system.

Newey said that all this was contrary to the training instilled in a Marshal over the years and that in a moment of crisis he might well forget it and endanger himself. He cited Kubica's crash in Canada as an example. It was monumental and Kubica's feet were exposed at the front. Any Marshal would want to help immediately, but he couldn't without going through the procedure.

I don't think this was mentioned, but what if a car became 'live' as a result of an an accident and the driver was naturally still inside. Might he not be endangered, too?

[wnut]

Thanks Strider, in one short paragraph I have gone from believing KERS should be in racing to believing it has no place in racing.

Does this mean if a driver somehow becomes grounded he could be electrocuted?

Also massively increase the chances of a fire.

[strider]

I don't want to exaggerate the consequences of KERS, but what you said my post did to you is exactly what Adrian Newey's comments did to me.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by strider

I must admit I rather enjoyed KERS last year, because some cars had it and others didn't. There seemed to be a choice to be made. If you had it you you would have the power advantage, e.g. Ferrari and McLaren, but you had to cope with the weight distribution problem, which meant that you would not have such a well-handling car. Those that didn't have it, e.g. Brawn and Red Bull, could optimise their cars' handling instead and that turned out to be the better way to go.

However all my thinking changed at the beginning of this year. Someone kindly gave me a ticket to the Prof. Sidney Watkins lecture at the Autosport show and the speaker was Adrian Newey. It was actually more a Q&A session between him and Maurice Hamilton and absolutely fascinating because Adrian didn't hold anything back

The subject of KERS came up and he was totally opposed to it and very relieved it had been banned for this season for a reason that hadn't occurred to me before. Safety.

Apparently before a Marshal can work on a KERS-equipped car safely he has to be wearing special gloves and there is a switch on the car that has to be turned off to deactivate the system.

Newey said that all this was contrary to the training instilled in a Marshal over the years and that in a moment of crisis he might well forget it and endanger himself. He cited Kubica's crash in Canada as an example. It was monumental and Kubica's feet were exposed at the front. Any Marshal would want to help immediately, but he couldn't without going through the procedure.

I don't think this was mentioned, but what if a car became 'live' as a result of an an accident and the driver was naturally still inside. Might he not be endangered, too?

While there is a safety issue to be managed I think Adrian was 'over egging the pudding' as we say in the UK.

Cars already have a fuel tank which has thousands of times more energy in it than the KERS system, A hydraulic system, possibly with an accumulator, operating at several thousand psi of pressure, an electrical system working at 6000 volts plus, all these have the potential to be extremely hazardous yet Marshalls, drivers, engineers and mechanics alike all live with these hazards and will comfortably live with KERS too. I'm not trying to belittle the concerns, risks have to be understood and sensibly managed but I think there is a real risk of getting hazards associated with KERS out of proportion.

I can't imagine why Adrian as (possibly) the worlds greatest racing car aerodynamicist would exagerate the risks of a non-aerodynamic device that can simultaneously enhance performance and make the drive train as a whole bulkier and more difficult to package.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Some would argue that KERS is already being developed successfully by companies outside of F1 and in a direction that is more in keeping with the every day needs of public use.

From an entertainment point of view, just allowing the drivers to turn up the rpms every now and then would have much the same effect.

Technlogy is great, but not just for the sake of it.

I would prefer that they use that solution as well, as you say technology for the sake of it is just that...

[Wims]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

While there is a safety issue to be managed I think Adrian was 'over egging the pudding' as we say in the UK....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__DpDTDyc4g

[strider]

Originally Posted by Wims

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__DpDTDyc4g

That was a well-recorded incident that occurred in the early days of KERS technology, but I think it proves that Adrian Newey was not 'over-egging the pudding.'

I don't know enough about it to have a personal opinion, but if someone like Newey says in a perfectly matter-of-fact way that it was unsuitable for F1 and that he was glad to see the back of it, then I am going to sit up and take notice.

[JeremySmith]

I am right with you here. To have to handle a car wearing long rubber gloves is just silly in my mind way to many things that can go wrong... They should forget KERS in a F1 car...

[JeremySmith]

Focus on the *damage* planes or the Tour de France do to the environment, rather than picking on F1, which in the overall scheme of things do a thousand times more damage..

Going fishing does more damage than F1 can ever do in a year. Let's get real...

[Paarma]

Articles about the adjustable rear wing are starting to appear...

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=48674

“From 2011, adjustable bodywork may be activated by the driver at any time prior to the start of the race and, for the sole purpose of improving overtaking opportunities during the race, after the driver has completed two laps,” the FIA statement added.

“The driver may only activate the adjustable bodywork in the race when he has been notified via the control electronics that it is enabled.

“It will only be enabled if the driver is less than one second behind another at any of the pre-determined positions around each circuit."

To me this sounds absolutely ridiculous. F1 is becoming like the EU of motorsports with its ridiculously complicated rules.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Paarma

Articles about the adjustable rear wing are starting to appear...

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=48674

Quote:
“From 2011, adjustable bodywork may be activated by the driver at any time prior to the start of the race and, for the sole purpose of improving overtaking opportunities during the race, after the driver has completed two laps,” the FIA statement added.

“The driver may only activate the adjustable bodywork in the race when he has been notified via the control electronics that it is enabled.

“It will only be enabled if the driver is less than one second behind another at any of the pre-determined positions around each circuit."


To me this sounds absolutely ridiculous. F1 is becoming like the EU of motorsports with its ridiculously complicated rules.

It does sound ridiculous. What happens if the adjustable wing jams?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It does sound ridiculous. What happens if the adjustable wing jams?

Accident .... BIG!!!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wnut

Accident .... BIG!!!

Doesn't seem like such a good idea; just another point of failure that will have to be considered.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It does sound ridiculous. What happens if the adjustable wing jams?

The wing would jam in one of the positions between optimum straight line speed and optimum cornering position. How would that lead to anything that would cause an accident? By that logic remove the wing and the suspension because it might fail or move in a corner and cause the car to spin off the track. NO team would ever run a wing through a position that would be harmful to the car's handling, would compromise the car more than the movement would be beneficial.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

The wing would jam in one of the positions between optimum straight line speed and optimum cornering position. How would that lead to anything that would cause an accident? By that logic remove the wing and the suspension because it might fail or move in a corner and cause the car to spin off the track. NO team would ever run a wing through a position that would be harmful to the car's handling, would compromise the car more than the movement would be beneficial.

In my post, i never said it would do anything that would cause an accident, I merely asked the question about it jamming.

Originally Posted by broadrun96

As for NO team would ever run a wing through a position that would be harmful to the car's handling, would compromise the car more than the movement would be beneficial.

Which is exactly why I asked about the possibility of it jamming.

[Tim the Grey]

Couple of points here, please?
KERS should only be introduced when it's electrically NEUTRAL to the car. If it CAN earth out, it will surely short out the car electronics, and thus park the car anyway.
Also, has 'flywheel' KERS now been disallowed?

Come on, this smacks of 'you cannot mean to burn petrol in a MOVING vehicle? Utter madness, horses are much safer...'

As to sticking wings? Low downforce setting, wing sticks, enter corner, fall off. Simples.

[ECW Dan Selby]

I think it'll be quite interesting seeing the drivers use the KERS and the rear wing during potential overtakes.

I mean, I have 2 mindsets here. 1 in a strange way I feel harks back to the days of active suspension etc, when drivers were trying to dial in the car whilst cornering, using all this advances technology. Drivers are going to have to control their KERS, as well as moveable rear-wing next season, which could be quite interesting.

The other mindset I have is that it is just a gimmick, like most feel on here.

Selby

[johntt]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Focus on the *damage* planes or the Tour de France do to the environment, rather than picking on F1, which in the overall scheme of things do a thousand times more damage..

Going fishing does more damage than F1 can ever do in a year. Let's get real...

The facts are irrelevant. F1 is (or eventually will be) perceived as environmentally damaging.

Your argument isn't going to wash with the media or politicians, despite its sound logic.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Couple of points here, please?
KERS should only be introduced when it's electrically NEUTRAL to the car. If it CAN earth out, it will surely short out the car electronics, and thus park the car anyway.
Also, has 'flywheel' KERS now been disallowed?

Come on, this smacks of 'you cannot mean to burn petrol in a MOVING vehicle? Utter madness, horses are much safer...'

As to sticking wings? Low downforce setting, wing sticks, enter corner, fall off. Simples.

Too bad if you are the conductor as KERS shorts to ground!

As to sticking wings? Low downforce setting, wing sticks, enter corner, fall off. Simples. Yup

Adjustable wing for overtaking = Push to Pass has now arrived in F1