Don't race on the streets

[sharkiesrule]

Obviously in relation to the incident in Sydney earlier:

JR: http://jasonrichards.bigblog.com.au/post.do?id=158724

Andy: http://andyjones.bigblog.com.au/post.do?id=159428

Cheers,

[kramer]

Don't just take their cars for a few weeks or months; auction them, money goes into improving the roads.

Don't start me on these street racing morons.

Shames me that I did the odd traffic-light Grand Prix when younger and dumber.


Kramer

[STEALTHY]

Personally i think 4WD soccer mums speding through school zomes is much more of a problem than these street racing morons wrapping themselves around a tree.

But more of a problem, Australia just gives anyone a license. Bring in YEARLY testing for every driver, as many older drivers got their license when you had to just drive the local cop around the block and paralell park.

[Pro Racer]

this is a serious problem and something needs to be done about it, sad about the recent events .

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by kramer

Don't just take their cars for a few weeks or months; auction them

I've got a beter idea, send the car straight to the crusher with the driver/owner watching it being crushed and of course this is also an option

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

Personally i think 4WD soccer mums speding through school zomes is much more of a problem than these street racing morons wrapping themselves around a tree.

But more of a problem, Australia just gives anyone a license. Bring in YEARLY testing for every driver, as many older drivers got their license when you had to just drive the local cop around the block and paralell park.

Agree on Mums....they are often too much in a hurry during the day....one case I know got booked both ways, same school zone, same day.

Some older drivers have managed to stay out of trouble for many many years as well....how do you explain that one?? There is a natural order of things..if you wander to far from the norm...well...wait for the bang!

[Axeman444]

I don't know the age of the 2 in question with this incident, but i fail to see why the governments do not restrict the cars that young people can drive, like they do with riders and bikes?
Rider = Not on your blacks? well here's a shiny 250cc you can ride
Driver = Not on your blacks? well here's a shiny STi WRX/HSV Commodore/whatever, go street racing/drifting and kill yourself or someone else.

the sooner that drivers understand they aren't knowledgable about driving until they have plenty of years experience the better everyone will be. If someone of the experience of PB can get it wrong, does this not cause alarm bells in the minds of the young and invincible? just as the sooner the government realises that innocent peoples' lives are more important than the taxes they get from these drivers, even better.

[kramer]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

. If someone of the experience of PB can get it wrong, does this not cause alarm bells in the minds of the young and invincible?

Clearly they don't get it. They think they're indestrucible and never seem to learn from others that they're not. 'I'm a good driver', they say. Ah-huh?

You do a test. You make a reverse park without higtting the gutter, you do a three-point turn and you obey most of the rules and they give you a licence. Suddenly, you're a 'good driver.'

Hands up here anyone who isn't better than average. Go on. Now think about that. How can everyone be better than average? I've studied statistics; only about a third can be better than average. One third will be within what's called a standard deviation of the norm (that's 'average') and another third will be worse.

Right. That's that taken care of.

I've also worked in driver training. Never mind where and when. These were people who wanted to learn and in theory should have been prepared to listen. Guess again.

Time to move on.

Who mentioned crushing the cars? That idea has some merit - they're doing it Los Angeles according to this morning's Sydney Morning Herald.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...252546951.html

A shame to see some nice cars get ruined, but maybe it would work with some. Of course, it would just build up resentment against 'them' from some who have only a nodding acquaintance with the rules of acceptable behaviour - you know, the ones who deal in drugs and put together a 'nice' car with the proceeds. They'll just think it's more reason for them to go feral.

Lots of the people being arrested in Sydney in the last few days seem to have been disqualfied from driving already - clearly not law-obiders. This is more of a behavioural issue.

Did this sort of lawlessness exist on such a scale in the past? Where does it come from? People are no damned good, it seems to me. I'm looking for an island to live on.

Car club members should be prowling the hangouts of these folks and encouraging them to join a proper car club - let them race on a race track, for God's sake. Maybe that will help.

That's a barrow I've been pushing for years - everybody say's 'yeah, good idea, someone should do that', expecting 'someone' to do it. I've tried. I really have. But I won't stop.

I need a lie down.


Kramer

[STEALTHY]

Just for the record, in late 2003 SAs only track 'closed'. It is said that it will be re-opening soon, but thats almost 4 years without anywhere 'legal' for me to drop a skid.


I think you guys are missing the point. Young drivers only make a small percentage or road users. There testing is 100 times harder than it was even 10 years ago. Sure getting the drivers when they are young is a good idea, but what about the other high ratio of crap older drivers.


I think a licensing sceme based on ability and attitude is in order. If you prove you can drive anything, and show a responsible head when driving, you can drive what ever car you want. Then we'll see these older drivers restricted to lower speeds and 4 cylinder cars.

Of course no governement would impose such a sceme, when 90% of their voters would end up losing their privelage to drive.

[peckstar]

very funny Stealthy, what you would find is that very few 18 yo males would get a licence if that was the case. because every 18yo male i have ever know would fail the attitude test and most of the female ones would also/

young drivers as you mentioned make up a small % of road users, but they represent a much larger % of road fatalities and incidents.

the testing is not 100 times harder, it is is most situations only slightly harder because they now do a danger awareness test (at least in vic, not sure about other states)

I was 18 once and i can tell you straight up that i was an idoit on the road as wree most of my friends, we did reckless and dangerous things and things have not changed, young people are still idiots on the road who do reckless and dengerous things.

[Aarrgh8]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

I don't know the age of the 2 in question with this incident

28 and 37, but mental age 12.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by peckstar

very funny Stealthy, what you would find is that very few 18 yo males would get a licence if that was the case. because every 18yo male i have ever know would fail the attitude test and most of the female ones would also/

young drivers as you mentioned make up a small % of road users, but they represent a much larger % of road fatalities and incidents.

the testing is not 100 times harder, it is is most situations only slightly harder because they now do a danger awareness test (at least in vic, not sure about other states)

I was 18 once and i can tell you straight up that i was an idoit on the road as wree most of my friends, we did reckless and dangerous things and things have not changed, young people are still idiots on the road who do reckless and dengerous things.

i was 18 once too (probably alot more recently than you were) and unlike other drivers my age, i actually drive within my limits, and my cars limits. This is what needs changing. Teach people HOW to drive, and you will minimise the crashes.

The testing IS easier, driving your local cop around the block is hard a 'test', and i'm sure back then it was more of a who you know, not what you know thing.

I tend not to believe those statistics, as they are flawed. Suggest a mother and her teenage son with 3 teenage friends are all killed, you bump up the % of 'younger' people killed on the roads, when really thats nothing to do with their driving capabilities. But thats just how people read into it. The media shows thier viewers what they want to see, and saying that young drivers are a menace and shouldn't have a license is always going to rate high.

Have a think about the amount or 'younger' people 'needing' a license for work purposes. I started working when i was 15, and it was a huge burden on my parents having to take me to work, AND pick me up. I hit 16.5 and suddenly they had their life back again.

9 times out of 10, its these young people stocking the shelves at your local woolies. Take the privelage of a license away from them, and your going to have alot of unhappy consumers not able to buy the food they need each week.

[barney551]

Stealthy what drugs are you on!! i am in my 50's and even back then we had to do a formal driving test at the RTA ... the only difference was that the test wasnt wriitten or on computer.

What is being talked about here is hoons who have no respect for others on the road and risk not only there lives but talso those who choose to drive down the same road adhering to the rules of the road .... there is no defence for these idiots ....... and if you are one of them then there is no defence for you as well.

Thay are all accidents waiting for a place to happen!!!! IMO

[peckstar]

ues you were 18 alot more recently than me and i did not drive a copper around the block. i took a driving test with someone i didnt know, same as all the other people my age, we also took a written test.. I have also taught about 15 people how to drive including one just 5 years ago, and have friends going through their L's right now. I know what is involved and its not that much harder. the big difference in Victoria now is that you have to 120 hours of driving before you can get your licence.

I have two degrees of seperation on two people who have died in car accidents in the last 12 months. both 18 (age to get licence in Vic) and two weekends ago a third was involved in a serious accident and is still in hospital promising football career over All three were the drivers.

You should believe those statistics because they are easy to support and easy to get evidence on and if you see the curve , you see a great jump at 18. If the theory of mum ddriving was treu then it would be consistant at every number up to 18 also

Yes old people can be a menace , especially as they get older (around 60 hey R8 ) but they dont go street racing they dont travel at high speeds in lower limits, they just become mennaces, not killers.

Im not suggesting that 18yo should have the priveledge taken away, just maybe you should open your eyes a little more and look at the big picture, not just what effects you

oh and remember "You're precious to so many. Act it. You're someone's son or daughter, much-loved grandchild, best mate. Act it. You're potentially someone's great love. Act it. "

a letter

[STEALTHY]

I never said these street racers shouldn't be taken off the road, i mearly suggested that our roads have alot bigger problems. Hoon is a hard word to define tho, i do burnouts, most here consider that hooning, yet i don't drive outside my limits, or my cars limits, meaning other road users aren't at risk.


Have a think about what peckstar has said, ALL 18yo drivers he knew, drove like morons. Seems to me, with an aging population, you guys made it, so why not give the newer driving generation the same chance. Keep in mind with the statistics, there is ALOT more drivers on the roads these days, or every catogory, or course there will be a higher road toll.

I don't see how you can consider all young people as hoons, and 'killers', not every driver decides to street race. As seen recently a 38yo KILLED 2 people, so thats that arguement right out the window.

Also anything about street racing wont effect me, i only like going fast in circles. But as i said, Adelaide dosn't have any drag facilities, and the only 'track' we have is $110 for a few laps. Hardly Value for money.


Personally i think giving these street racers somewhere to have fun, will reduce the impact they make. Skaters get skate parks, golfers get golf courses, why not set up government funded places for thse peole.

Of course this seems to be merging 2 groups, Car enthusiests and Hoons. Car enthusiests actually spend thousands on their cars safety, yet the public as a whole seem to think there cars are unsafe.

[kramer]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

I never said these street racers shouldn't be taken off the road, i mearly suggested that our roads have alot bigger problems. Hoon is a hard word to define tho, i do burnouts, most here consider that hooning, yet i don't drive outside my limits, or my cars limits, meaning other road users aren't at risk.


Personally i think giving these street racers somewhere to have fun, will reduce the impact they make. Skaters get skate parks, golfers get golf courses, why not set up government funded places for thse peole.

Except that by making the wheels spin you HAVE exceeded the car's limit of adhesion. By the way, where's the skill in doing a wheelspin?

Car places cost a lot more than skate parks. That's why 'they' don't provide them. And stop expecting 'them' to provide. Fact is, what you're doing is considered anti-social in this day and age.

Or, you could join a car club and you'd have access to proper places like Mallala to do some supersprints. Or whatever - motorkhanas, hillclimbs, whatever floats your boat.

If you're really that keen to just do burnouts, get together with your mates, buy the land, pave it, get approval and go to your heart's conent. Or maybe you could hire Mallala for a day - I'm sure Clem's agreeable to such things. But don't do it on the road. Don't do it where you'll **** people off. Like quiet suburbs late at night.

And street racing IS stupid. Those old folks killed in Sydney got cleaned up because people were driving at a ridiculous speed on a public road with no possibility of stopping.

Grow up, all you street racers. There are places to race and places not to race.




Kramer

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by peckstar

ues you were 18 alot more recently than me and i did not drive a copper around the block. i took a driving test with someone i didnt know, same as all the other people my age, we also took a written test.. I have also taught about 15 people how to drive including one just 5 years ago, and have friends going through their L's right now. I know what is involved and its not that much harder. the big difference in Victoria now is that you have to 120 hours of driving before you can get your licence.

I have two degrees of seperation on two people who have died in car accidents in the last 12 months. both 18 (age to get licence in Vic) and two weekends ago a third was involved in a serious accident and is still in hospital promising football career over All three were the drivers.

You should believe those statistics because they are easy to support and easy to get evidence on and if you see the curve , you see a great jump at 18. If the theory of mum ddriving was treu then it would be consistant at every number up to 18 also

Yes old people can be a menace , especially as they get older (around 60 hey R8 ) but they dont go street racing they dont travel at high speeds in lower limits, they just become mennaces, not killers.

Im not suggesting that 18yo should have the priveledge taken away, just maybe you should open your eyes a little more and look at the big picture, not just what effects you

oh and remember "You're precious to so many. Act it. You're someone's son or daughter, much-loved grandchild, best mate. Act it. You're potentially someone's great love. Act it. "

a letter

just been reading through this thread and i agree with much of what ye have said, specially about old people on the road's, some of them are menace's specially when you get stuck doing 30 on the motorway behind one that's scary i tells ya! .

and a lot of the stuff about young people is pretty true, especially the attitude's of some people and the way they drive, one pupil in my school has already totalled 3 car's, luckily he hasnt seriously injured someone yet, and someone has already done the job of crashing into my car in a car park which did not impress me.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by kramer

Except that by making the wheels spin you HAVE exceeded the car's limit of adhesion. By the way, where's the skill in doing a wheelspin?

Car places cost a lot more than skate parks. That's why 'they' don't provide them. And stop expecting 'them' to provide. Fact is, what you're doing is considered anti-social in this day and age.

Or, you could join a car club and you'd have access to proper places like Mallala to do some supersprints. Or whatever - motorkhanas, hillclimbs, whatever floats your boat.

If you're really that keen to just do burnouts, get together with your mates, buy the land, pave it, get approval and go to your heart's conent. Or maybe you could hire Mallala for a day - I'm sure Clem's agreeable to such things. But don't do it on the road. Don't do it where you'll **** people off. Like quiet suburbs late at night.

And street racing IS stupid. Those old folks killed in Sydney got cleaned up because people were driving at a ridiculous speed on a public road with no possibility of stopping.

Grow up, all you street racers. There are places to race and places not to race.




Kramer

You may think there is no skill in doing burnouts, and that its 'anti-social' but thats your opinion. I don't see anything good about bingo, yet pleanty of people do that. At risk of putting this in the same boat as drugs (which it is not) the government provide safe houses for people to shoot up, to get them off the streets. This theory could be used with street racres or 'hoons' (which still hasn't actually been defined.

And for the record, i was already in about 4 different clubs. They don't offer track days, as insurance is just simply too much.
With those clubs i have attended legal burnout comps, but they are about once a year, and the last one i went to i had to drive 3 hours there, and 3 hours back. People that don't do burnouts will say tuff luck, but i don't see why i should have to drive 3 hours to drop a skid, when there is plenty of unused land within the TransportSA compounds to make avalaible to people like me.

I'm not going to bother mentioning where i do burnouts, but you can sleep well at night knowing i'm not doing loops through a child crossing at 8:30am on a weekday.


I'll say once again, there is NOT a place to race in Adelaide. Its no coincidence that the police commisioner rants and raves about these hoons, which suddenly became a problem in late 03, the same time AIR closed its gates. I'm not a rocket scientist or anything, but join 2 and 2 together, and its pretty obvious why Adelaide hoon problem has become so big.


Were getting side tracked again, this post basically summed up my concerns

Personally i think 4WD soccer mums speding through school zones is much more of a problem than these street racing morons wrapping themselves around a tree.

[Axeman444]

if they are simply wrapping themselves around a tree, i might agree with you. but the fact they are lacking the skill to stay on the road, means they lack the same skill to intentionally miss everyone else on the road before they get to the tree, and thus everyone else on the road is at risk because of these retards. of course this doesn't even consider the rescue workers that have to witness the mess, and the other incidents these workers could be attending to if they didn't have visit accident scenes.

i'm sorry if you don't have anywhere to "drop a skid". doesn't mean you or anyone else can do it anywhere that will endanger other peoples lives AND property

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Axeman444

if they are simply wrapping themselves around a tree, i might agree with you. but the fact they are lacking the skill to stay on the road, means they lack the same skill to intentionally miss everyone else on the road before they get to the tree, and thus everyone else on the road is at risk because of these retards. of course this doesn't even consider the rescue workers that have to witness the mess, and the other incidents these workers could be attending to if they didn't have visit accident scenes.

i'm sorry if you don't have anywhere to "drop a skid". doesn't mean you or anyone else can do it anywhere that will endanger other peoples lives AND property

But whinging about hoons is just a cop out really. Sure every once in a while an innocent person falls victim to these idiots, but the point i'm trying to make, is there are other MORE dangerous road users.
I specifically mentioned 4WD soccer mums speeding through school zones. Obviously people without children wont understand the risks those drivers are taking (due to the fact not alot of chirldren had road smarts, and just cross whenever they want). I don't have kids, but i have a neice, and thats enough to be worried about how they drive through those area's.

Rescue workers have to cut people out of cars all the time. How about we go through those statistics and have a look at drunk drivers compared to street racers (and then just for kicks add in the amount of people injusred from a low speed burnout) and i bet drunks will have it won 10 times over.


I can only drive one car. I minimise the risks when chucking a few loops. If anything, i'm over catious to protect my car from other poeple, as opposed to them being in any inherit danger.

[kramer]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

You may think there is no skill in doing burnouts, and that its 'anti-social' but thats your opinion. I don't see anything good about bingo, yet pleanty of people do that. At risk of putting this in the same boat as drugs (which it is not) the government provide safe houses for people to shoot up, to get them off the streets. This theory could be used with street racres or 'hoons' (which still hasn't actually been defined.

And for the record, i was already in about 4 different clubs. They don't offer track days, as insurance is just simply too much.
With those clubs i have attended legal burnout comps, but they are about once a year, and the last one i went to i had to drive 3 hours there, and 3 hours back. People that don't do burnouts will say tuff luck, but i don't see why i should have to drive 3 hours to drop a skid, when there is plenty of unused land within the TransportSA compounds to make avalaible to people like me.

I'm not going to bother mentioning where i do burnouts, but you can sleep well at night knowing i'm not doing loops through a child crossing at 8:30am on a weekday.


I'll say once again, there is NOT a place to race in Adelaide. Its no coincidence that the police commisioner rants and raves about these hoons, which suddenly became a problem in late 03, the same time AIR closed its gates. I'm not a rocket scientist or anything, but join 2 and 2 together, and its pretty obvious why Adelaide hoon problem has become so big.


Were getting side tracked again, this post basically summed up my concerns

I don't make a habit of playing bingo. Nor do I play lawn bowls. I compete in motorsport. And sometimes I have to drive a ways to get to where I'm competing. Sydney to Perth, for example. Or Melbourne, Brisbane, Canberra and so on. So don't bleat to me about driving for three hours. Where was that, Malalla?

What clubs? The "I've got a shiny car and so do you so let's give each other a polish" club isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a sporting car club, affiliated with CAMS, which will allow you to do organised off-street motorsport (like drifting, motorkhanas, supersprints, hillclimbs) all in your road car, provided it's reasonably mechanically sound, without bankrupting you.

Then you'll find out just how little skill is required to do a burnout - trust me. You'll also find out how MUCH skill you need to be good at these things the first time a 15 year old schoolgirl in a Laser beats you. And it can happen.

Face it; doing burnouts and racing on the road is against the law - right or wrong. Break the law at your own peril. Up here (Sydney) they take your car and licence away. In Queensland you go to the big house and get to be friends with Bubba. The folks that were involved in a couple of the recent street racing incidents here in Sydney are having that experience right now. They'll eat standing up for a while, I'd suggest. And they'll poo donuts, too.

I have a child. I obey the speed limits through school zones and most everywhere else too. Last speeding ticket was September 1984. It's about having some self-control and discipline.

You're right, soccer Mums in their urban assault vehicles can be a worry. They can be a danger. So can any number of other classes of bad drivers. Or even bad drivers that don't fit into any easy category. But people who race on the street are making things more hazardous than is good. You're driving along in a 60 zone, you see a car 300 metres away. You assume it's doing 60, maybe 70, so that gives you heaps of time to make that right turn. When it's doing 100 or 150, you don't have time after all. Suddenly you're dead.

It's pretty hard to judge speed with the car coming straight at you. That's why it's dangerous. Really, really dangerous.

Here's the other thing. One of the street racers was photographed being hauled into the ambulance in a HRT jacket. I'm yet to see HRT decrying this incident. I don't think for a moment they condone it, but I'd have thought they'd be pretty quick to distance themselves from this sort of thing.

So get in touch with the Mini Car Club or the MG Car Club or the Adelaide CAMS office and find somewhere you can have fun in your car without getting people annoyed. You don't need an MG or a Mini, either, so don't worry. Just don't run in there and brag about your burnout ambitions - you'll make few friends. Bring your mates - you never know, you might enjoy fitting in.



Kramer

[STEALTHY]

The comp i went to was in Pt Pirie, malalla is only about an hours drive, if that.

I've been to a few drift comps as a spectator, but you don't need to be affiliated with a club for that. And i don't think that you should have to be in a club to enjoy your car. I don't know why the government havn't cottoned on to it, that they could make a fortune (probably not as much fining people tho) charging people for such activities. Seems like a sweeping under the rug thing.


Keep in mind here, i agree 100% with the street racing laws, and the punishment that those guys got. But with such laws, it has already become apparent that they are being abused. I know of a guy who left a house, his mate left about 2 minutes later, and suddenly both their cars were impounded. Now i'n not up with those laws, but a 'race' is usually at the same place, same time.


I never looked into the MG or mini club, as i assumed they were model specific. I'll see what they come up with, but if its going to cost me $500 a year just to be a member, i don't see that as being cost effective.
Burnout comps and off street drags only cost around $30 or $40 if i remember the correctly, but 8 hours is abit far to travel daily, and work. Obviously your motorsport is only a weekend thing, and you must have a very understanding employer to be able to come and go. Others aren't so lucky.

Once again, this has gotten side tracked. Street racing = Bad, but if there isn't facilities readily avaliable like there is for people with other interests, don't be suprised.

[kramer]

Membership is probably about $50 a year.

A CAMS Level 2 licence for speed events (covers everything I've mentioned) is under $100. Entry fees go from $40 or so up to maybe a couple of hundred, depending on the event.

The point is that the facilities exist. It's just a matter of finding them.

I'm at work nine or ten hours a day, five days. Then I come home and do my other job. I hardly travel much these days.

But for the love of whatever, please don't do dumb stuff on the roads. Tell your mates the same.


Kramer

[STEALTHY]

I do stupid stuff on the road every day. I drive with other people on the road. Unfortunatly the police don't like to enforce the laws unless you have a P plate in the window.

[Chatters]

The thing that annoys me more is the mindset people have- "He's a P plater, they must be a bad driver"- Everyone seems to instantly think that as soon as we get our P's we become a danger to other road users.

Learners have to do 50 - 120 hours experience to drive get their P's. We have to pass a test that says we are experienced enough to drive alone on the road, so obviously someone thinks we are safe enough to drive by ourselves.

Don't think for a second that every P plater wants to speed and to drag and to chuck burnouts- It's not like that. I know at least 20 people on their P's who've never had a speeding fine, or been pulled over by the cops for anything apart from RBT.

And to be honest, every time I've been in a car with a mate of mine on their P's I've felt safe. Which is better than a 50 year old family friend I was in a car with once. We were going down a hill at 80 kays when I asked what was down a road off to the right. He swung full right lock and came within what I'd say was inches between staying on the road and rolling into a patch of trees. He lost control of the car (once it came down off two wheels- and this is a Toyota Hilux we're talking about, big beasts) and I genuinely thought my time was up.

I've never felt that way in a P platers car.