British GP KED Teams - thoughts?

[Teletubby]

Elite Paramedics from GMAS help out at Formula 1 race !
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The millionaire stars of Formula One will have an elite paramedic team from Manchester to look after them at this weekend's British Grand Prix.


The specially-trained group will be on standby at Silverstone - the first time in the history of the British GP that professional paramedics have been recruited. Traditionally, the Formula One circuit has employed race marshals with medical training to be first on the scene of a crash.

But six paramedics from central Manchester have been picked for this year's meeting and they have been in training for the past six months to get to grips with F1 cars. The team may have years of experience helping people in road accidents, but they had to learn how to get extract a F1 driver from of a car - usually by taking the seat out too.

Simon Cunniffe, 30, Steve Waters, 42, Landon Partington, 26, Simon McHardy, Paul O'Neill, 34, and Nick Priest, 34, have been training with the Williams and Jordan teams.

Alongside the paramedic crew led by Manchester Royal Infirmary doctor Harj Chaggar, firefighters and marshals from the Isle of Man have also been recruited.

Delighted

The move comes after concerns about security at the track. Last year, a demonstrator ran out on to the track, endangering not only himself, but also the drivers.

Silverstone's chief medical officer Dr David Cranston said:

"It is the first time we have used teams like this and I am delighted with how they have performed in training. I hope this is the first of many events we have with this team."

The volunteer paramedics aren't getting paid for the extra work, but Simon Cunniffe says they leaped at the chance to help out.

"We have been preparing for weeks for this, coming down here in our spare time," he said. "None of us has done anything like this before, but it is fantastic to be involved.

"We are starting our days at 7am, working through to 6pm and camping on the marshals' campsite.

"We won't be just working with Formula One, but all the races over the weekend. But I am sure we will find some time to relax before we head back to work."

GMAS chief executive John Burnside said: "I am sure the team will do Manchester proud."

[Red Baron]

Does this mean that next year, in order to increase security ALL marshals posts, Rescue Units, Snatch vehicles etc will be manned by people that are prepared to give up a number of days a year to train and gain the necessary experience required to entitle them to work at the GP and not only that, but all of these lucky people will stand on post from 8am until almost 7pm for three whole days, covering not only F1 but also the support races......and furthermore, they will do it for free !!

Oh, hang on a second, they already are!!!!!



I think you know my opinion, don't you Martin

[Stuart Hill]

So what happens if I don't live in Manchester????

And are they only "more experienced" because there are more so-called "joy-riders" (thieves!!) in Manchester who have more road accidents than the rest of the country??

No offense meant to any decent people from Manchester but really......!!!!

Where did this c**p come from??

[garcon]

Oi, watch what you say about Manchester - it's our "friends" from down the Mersey you have to watch out for...

The bit I can't equate is, "The move comes after concerns about security at the track. Last year, a demonstrator ran out on to the track, endangering not only himself, but also the drivers."
:confused:

Eh? so how does that change anything?

In some ways I can understand that professional full time paramedics will be more highly skilled than well trained but mostly (?) amateur rescue crews. But with the right number of doctors on hand, and a fully kitted out med centre on site, how highly skilled do the initial on-scene teams need to be??

[Stuart Hill]

AND !!!!!!!!!

what about using the already existing pool of very experienced personnel who are already committed to motorsport and more than willing to take-on extra training???? eg All the current MSA licensed Rescue crews!!!

I for one am damn certain who I'd like to be first-on-scene if I had a Motorsport Accident.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by garcon
Oi, watch what you say about Manchester - it's our "friends" from down the Mersey you have to watch out for...
Oooops!!

In some ways I can understand that professional full time paramedics will be more highly skilled than well trained but mostly (?) amateur rescue crews. But with the right number of doctors on hand, and a fully kitted out med centre on site, how highly skilled do the initial on-scene teams need to be??

Highly skilled they may be but.... in a number of different skills. Rescue etc are specifically trained for the types of incidents that they may come across at a motorsport venue. Paramedics have so many other areas to become skilled in and to deal with. Also, many Rescue personnel are already either Paramedics or even Doctors in their own right.

[garcon]

That's what I thought. Which kinda means it doesn't make any sense. Wonder who's idea it was?

[mark_l]

When did you last see a Paramedic using the "jaws of life" or other such equipment.

They normally wait for the Fire Brigade to do the slicing and cutting.

A dangerous precedent being set? or a move that is to be supported and welcomed?

[sss]

well, all i can say is if the powers that be think we are not good enough to do the F1, then he must be right. maybe they should find someone else to replace the rescue crews for all events.

now i need to find something else to do on weekends.

[scorch]

Can sombody correct me but don't we have paramedics at every meeting of the year, in doctors cars etc...

[Stephen Green]

Why could they not have used volunteer rescue crews from units that were not invited to attend the GP weekend? Maybe Martin you could ask the question of the MSA and see what there reply is. There may be a very good reason for this move but at the moment I'm struggling to think what it could be.

[Stephen Green]

The press statement says the moves comes because of security worries over last years track invader. Surely then they should have employed (note the word employ) more spectator marshals as they are the ones who stop track invasions of any sort.

[Woolley]

Originally posted by mark_l
When did you last see a Paramedic using the "jaws of life" or other such equipment.

This bit's not relevent - these are KED crews, remember, not Rescue.

That said, the article itself doesn't seem to make much sense. If you can KED someone out of a car, you can do it on any car. I've done it for GTs and DTM, I'd expect Paramedics to be able to do it anywhere in anything. Similarly, I can't understand 'Spectator marshals droppod a gonad, so we've brought in professional paramedics to extract the drivers"? ??

I can only imagine this is F1's superior attitude again. The guys and girls that do this every week-end are not good enough for F1. Remember Max thinks Ralf's accident was well handled because "A well meaning amateur can do more harm than good".

[blackx]

It just makes me not want to bother doing a grand prix even more than i did before I read the drivel tbh...
As Crazystu has already said....All MSA licenced rescue crew are familiar with using KED/RED/TED etc...
Surely it would take a lot less in the way of tuition to get them up to speed with the intricacies of a formula 1 car....

[stroller]

The whole piece smacks of an NHS (Manchester area?) press release made up from a few quotes from someone who hasn't a clue about Motorsport in general.

Would the same personel be available for other (less "glamourous") events I wonder?

Just found the article in the Manchester Evening News (Surprise Surprise) by Rebecca Camber

What appears at the start of the thread is veratim from the article.

[Mark Mitchell]

My guess it that this article was written by journo's that don't have a clue about motorsport and that the article was based upon information given to them by the Paramedics who don't have a clue about motorsport!

[andrewleprevost]

As one of the Isle of Man KED Crews, I'd like to make a few comments about the above.

Our crew are all MSA Rescue Crew - but to be honest it didn't make any difference with working with the F1 / F3000 cars as although being called "KED" crews, we don't use a "KED/TED/RED" etc at all.

The process for the KED crews is that if there is an incident, then the Medical Car and the nearest FD (Fast Doctor) car will proceed to the incident. They will assess the situation and if they feel that the driver may have c-spine injuries, will then request the nearest KED crew to attend. All the Medical Car and FD crews will then stand back whilst the 6 KED crew get the driver out. There is a doctor on the KED crew but they are mainly there to stay near the head and can watch for any change in the drivers condition as well as helping with straps etc. The KED crew do absolutely NO medical work whatsoever – that is left to the Medical Car and FD crews.

The method of using special tools, straps and the way it was done was new to all of us – so in theory any previous training didn’t really matter. I suppose that we have trained together in removing people from vehicles before but usually on a long board and after having cut the roof off – but this was a totally new concept to us.

The 6 KED crew have trained extensively to get the driver out as soon as possible using special equipment that they carry with them in the minimum possible time as possible. For those of you who are interested, the process is as follows:
# Releasing the Drivers harness.
# Removing the Headrest unit.
# Unscrewing the seat from the car shell.
# Removing the Helmet and HANS device.
# Applying a Collar.
# Using special straps carried by the KED crew, secure the driver into the seat.
# Add a special headrest to the seat and attach the head to this to keep C-Spine control.
# Using other special lifting straps, lift the driver still in the seat out of the vehicle and onto a Vac Mat.
# Unstrap the driver from the seat, lift the driver up into the air and remove the seat.
# Lower the driver onto the Vac Mat, strap him in and remove the air.
# Carry the Vac Mat to the waiting Ambulance and place on Stretcher.

All the above was being done in approximately 3:30 to 4 minutes with no talking being done between the crew (due to possible noise on the circuit) and everyone knowing exactly what task they should be doing. Of course we also trained for “Plan Z” which is getting the driver out ASAP due to needing urgent medical attention or risk of Fire etc. without removing the seat but trying to keep C-Spine control as best as possible.

The KED crews do also carry a normal KED which could have been used on the other vehicles in the Support Races, but to be honest, the Circuit Rescue Crews would have attended these to get roofs off etc and may well have done this bit as well. We were mainly there for the F1 bit of it.

I don’t know how the team selection was done – our Rescue Unit has been down to Silverstone for the GP in 2002 and we were delighted to be asked to return to do KED.

I hope this explains some of how the KED teams worked – they are not there to replace the Rescue Crews, or the Marshals, their only job is to lift the driver out of the F1 Car. The way it is done needs 6 people to do it - each of whom has their own bit to do which they have trained for especially. I know most Rescue Crews on the Circuit didn’t have 6 people onboard, nor would there be 6 marshals spare, so maybe it was easier to train 3 special teams to do just that rather than every Rescue Crew, Marshal etc!

All the best.

Andrew

[stroller]

Alongside the paramedic crew led by Manchester Royal Infirmary doctor Harj Chaggar, firefighters and marshals from the Isle of Man have also been recruited.

With the location of some of the places mentioned, I think it is all part of Bernies plans to relocate the GP

My Guess would be Anglesy

[Stephen Green]

Andrew, welcome to Ten-Tenths and thanks for the in depth insight into KED.

[Red Baron]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Why could they not have used volunteer rescue crews from units that were not invited to attend the GP weekend?

Hi Steve, I can't speak for all the KED crews but I do know that BARC HQ/BARC SE Rescue were going to provide a crew for this years GP and the reason I know is because I was going to be one of the members. However, a few months back someone far more important than us made the decision to drop us (and the other two crews) in favour of the IOM, paramedic and fireman crews.

I don't really know why this decision was made but like everyone else, I fail to see why it addresses security concerns. I also fail to see why a crew of professional firemen or paramedics are more suited to the job, especially since when I spoke with one of the doctors closely involved in their training he said that the hardest part was teaching them NOT to act as paramedics as they were there to extricate and not to treat the casualty !!!!

Obviously it was disappointing to be dropped, especially as I know for sure that all of the BARC Resuce personnel involved were willing to give up even more time to train specfically for the GP. Also, I know that all of this years KED crews performed very well in their offical tests (and I mean no disrespect to them in this post), I am sure that we, and other rescue personnel could have performed equally as well if given the opportunity.

Still, if all things 'motor sport' ran fairly and without a hitch, we'd have nothing to debate on here would we

Incidentally, my aim has always been to marshal/resuce at the GP, but after having such a great weekend this year, getting up late and wandering back and forth to the circuit at my leisure, as far as the GP is concerned I have defected to the spectator camp

Rosie

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by andrewleprevost
As one of the Isle of Man KED Crews, I'd like to make a few comments about the above.
Andrew

All of which were taken ( I hope) in the manner that they were written. Welcome Andrew.

But I, as a Marshal who's used to working with Rescue personnel, must take issue with the whole idea of bringing-in "experienced personnel".

Whilst I fully agree with the idea of Fast Response, Highly Trained personnel being the required attendees at an incident like Ralf/Janno's, I do take issue with the need to "bring-in" outsiders. I say this with no detriment to the invited persons but..... just what do the MSA think that our current MSA licensed Rescue Crews are trained in??????

Whilst I have had many (even too many) instances when I have had to call these persons to my incident, at NO time have they or I felt the need to call-in other personnel. (except for air ambulances which is not their call).

AT NO TIME has the casualty been "handed-over" to someone else for another team to do their job, these guys are trained to do ALL jobs!!! ie: stabilisation, resuss, control of spine, new airway, etc, etc need I say more???? but above all....... to get back on thread...

Rescue Crews in the UK are trained to deal with Motorsport Incidents!!!! not granny having a panic attack in Safeways etc !!! (no offense to all paramedics).

Does the FIA not realise that there is an available pool of highly trained (unpaid) "professionals" just waiting for the call???? Extra Training???? just how much do they think it would take???

But before anyone tries to cast aspertions about my comments.....

NO; I am not a member of a Rescue Unit nor do I have a Rescue License....

YES; I have been on duty on a Unit....
Yes; I have had to work VERY closely with various units and crew members...

and YES!!!!!!! without doubt, I am certain that I would prefer a Motorsport trained Rescue Unit being the first vehicle on scene of any motoring type incident that I may be involved with or in !!!!

The idea that the FIA actually turned-down volunteers with the obvious training/ experience (not to mention the comittment) fills me with dread as to what the future may hold.

Well done to all of you that were invited but.....

The method of using special tools, straps and the way it was done was new to all of us – so in theory any previous training didn’t really matter. I suppose that we have trained together in removing people from vehicles before but usually on a long board and after having cut the roof off – but this was a totally new concept to us.

this is not the sort of quote I would have expected anyone to have been able to say. The FIA should have invited people who were used to this sort of thing.

[Woolley]

Originally posted by blackx
Surely it would take a lot less in the way of tuition to get them up to speed with the intricacies of a formula 1 car....

Same as FBMW, only bigger.

Probably not much different from a Caterham, come to that, and I'm sure you've practiced that sometime?

[andrewleprevost]

Hello.

The idea that the FIA actually turned-down volunteers with the obvious training/ experience (not to mention the comittment) fills me with dread as to what the future may hold.

Well done to all of you that were invited but.....

this is not the sort of quote I would have expected anyone to have been able to say. The FIA should have invited people who were used to this sort of thing.

We as a Rescue Unit have practiced extrication in every type of vehicle that we may come across such as: Rally Cars, Normal Cars, Single Seaters, Historics, F2 Stockcars, MiniStocks, Bangers, Robin Reliants, Karts etc. etc. Doing training such as “no-damage extraction” (without cutting the roof off!), cutting the roof off, “Plan Z” and cars on sides, roof etc. The only cars that I am aware of which have the removable seat that the driver is strapped into is the F1 and F3000 cars – both of which we hadn’t used before. To get the driver out in the seat requires a special pack of screwdrivers, head blocks, securing straps and lifting straps plus 6 people in order to do it properly who know exactly what order to do it in and which person is doing which bit.

When we first did the training we were told to “forget any other way in which you would get the driver out – this way is the FIA way and it is the way it will be done”. A few of the crew had done the old KED teams and to be honest they found this way better. There was more control of the casualty and it made the whole job much better.

Whilst I fully agree with the idea of Fast Response, Highly Trained personnel being the required attendees at an incident like Ralf/Janno's, I do take issue with the need to "bring-in" outsiders. I say this with no detriment to the invited persons but..... just what do the MSA think that our current MSA licensed Rescue Crews are trained in??????

Does the FIA not realise that there is an available pool of highly trained (unpaid) "professionals" just waiting for the call???? Extra Training???? just how much do they think it would take???

I am certain that I would prefer a Motorsport trained Rescue Unit being the first vehicle on scene of any motoring type incident that I may be involved with or in !!!!

I don’t know why they chose a Rescue Unit Crew, some Paramedics and some Firemen – that decision wasn’t down to me!

I know of several Rescue Units in the UK who have problems finding a crew of 2 or 3 to cover an event, let alone 5 crew and a Doctor who can all get together where they are to do some training and all attend Silverstone a few weeks before the GP for 2 days in order to do some more training. We have a crew of 16 people – all Rescue trained and even we have problems in crewing a vehicle but we were asked and the 6 who went all said they could do it.

As I said above, practically none of the training we had done was useful apart from using a Vac Mat! From doing training and working with the Paramedics and Firemen, they had no problem at all in doing the job, and if I was an F1 driver (I wish!) I wouldn’t mind if the people getting me out were MSA Rescue Crews, Paramedics or Firemen – as long as they could do it properly and causing the least discomfort to me then it wouldn’t cause me a problem.

As to the first vehicle on Scene – not true. In the event of an incident, the Medical Car and the FD (Fast Doctor) car would have been there first. They would have assessed the driver and if they needed cutting out, would have called in the Rescue Unit. If they just needed lifting out, would have called in the KED Extrication Team. The KED team and the Rescue Crew would not have been the only/first people on scene.

Rescue Crews in the UK are trained to deal with Motorsport Incidents!!!! not granny having a panic attack in Safeways etc !!! (no offense to all paramedics).

To be honest, I feel that this is more of an offence to Rescue Crews than Paramedics. To become a Rescue Crew member you have to have some medical training and know what all the kit on the vehicle is used for and how to use it.

A lot of Rescue crews take it much much further. Every one of our crew has done the 4 day First Aid at Work certificate. Most of them have also done the Red Cross old Ambulance Aid Level 2 course. On our Rescue Crew, we have 2 Doctors, a Paramedic, 2 Ambulance Technicians with the local Ambulance Service and 6 or 7 St John Members. We work very closely with the local Ambulance Service. Several of their Paramedics come out on events with us, and their Paramedic Trainer does 4 or 5 courses with us each year. We do medical training at least every other month throughout the whole year.

If you are doing Rally Rescue then you can be the only Medical Support in the middle of a Forest. You don't have the option of calling in St John or whoever is providing Spectator Safety. If a Spectator has an incident then it is down to you to deal with it. I have had several drivers/co-drivers who after an accident have had panic attacks. Our biggest "non-motorsport incident" is probably a male who collapsed in the Paddock at a Bike event with a Heart Attack. The Rescue Unit was there within 60 seconds, CPR and a few Defib Shocks later on, he was back in the land of the living and in the back of the Unit on the way to Hospital where he made a full recovery. We train for all sorts of things that may happen - not just "Motorsport Incidents" - A Woman in Labour, a child who has fallen and broken their arm, even down to what to do with people with Drug Overdoses! We don't always have a Doctor or Paramedic with us.

Finally....

From speaking to the 2 other KED crews, this has made them a lot more aware of Motorsport Events to a point where some of them may even start going out with a Rescue Unit. Maybe the Paramedics will become "Motorsport Paramedics" and help to provide Medical Suport which could keep some events going (there are many events that struggle to get the necessary medical cover). I don't think they were chosen for their Paramedic or Firefighting Skills - they were groups of people who are used to working together in unusal situations but following a set procedure in order to do something - I'm not saying that Rescue Crews can't do that, but if it has bought new people into the Motorsport Safety organisations and they continue to do it, then it can only benifit the General Motorsport World.

I'm not having a go at you, it's just that I believe that the KED teams didn't have to be Rescue Crews, they were doing something that the Rescue Crews would have had to train for anyway, and if it has bought new people in who may carry on doing other things at Motorsport events, then what can be the problem?!!!

Cheers.

Andrew.

[sss]

andrew,

i dont think the gripe is with using licenced crew such as yourself. i think its coming from the fact that crews work through the year taking leave from work to cover weekday or weekend events, then along comes the F1 and we are not thought of as being worthy enough to cover the event by the boys at the top. and they would rather bring in 'outsiders'. what a 'thank you' for covering all the other meetings throughout the season.

[Woolley]

It's not even that. It's the fact that FIA seem to think they need something different, and to publicize it in this way. There's absolutely no gripe with any of the rescue, KED or paramedic crews. The message that was put out to the great unwashed was 'The usual crews are fine most of the time, but for the GP we need something better' when we all know that these guys (and they are very welcome) are just an addition to the highly skilled people we already have. With all the good PR our Steve is getting it's a shame someone else (the media reporter) has chosen to undermine us through lack of understanding.