My new site on car racing

[Emulmans]

Hello!
i'm italian and i have created a site, www.racecars.it all in english language and with a forum: it's purpose is TO BECOME THE GREAT ARCHIVE OF RACING CARS ON THE NET, a real encyclopaedia of racing! for example, go to SEARCH RACES, click on FULL YEAR, then choose 2004 as year and the click on SHOW RACES; then click on the little button left to every line of a race and you'll see all the features of that races, inserted in NEW RACE.
I want that every passionate of racing cars can use teh archive, add races, modify them and discuss about the races in the forum.
Thank you for your patience

[D-Type]

Can I ask why you are trying to do this?

There are already several excellent sites listing results of different series, forix and silhouet.com come immediately to mindand there are others covering sports cars, NASCAR, CART etc. It would be far more useful to the motor racing community if you were to specialise in an area that has not been fully researched. As you are Italian, the Italian racing scene is an obvious choice: internationally you have the Italian GP, the Targa, the Mille Miglia, all the non-championship F1 races at Syracusa, Napoli, etc, the non-championship sports car races at Mugello, garda, etc. Then you have all the Italian national races. That would be a far more valuable task than simply plagiarising the research that has gone into other sites.

You also appear to say that you want anybody to be able to add races and modify them. This is extremely dangerous and could destroy the credibility of your site. How long will it be before somebody decides it would be fun to add fictitious races or maybe in all sincerity add some of the spoof results that magazines have published on April 1st. If you look at some of the discussions on, for example, the AtlasF1 historical forum you will realise that even the contemporary published record is not necessarily correct. You would be better advised to invite contributions but insist on knowing the source and on checking them yourself.

If you are really interested in recording motor racing history and publishing it on the web I suggest you would be well advised to contact the 'owners' of some established sites and offer to work in collaboration with them rather than set up in competition.

Finally, as your site grows how do you propose to fund it?

[Emulmans]

Originally posted by D-Type
Can I ask why you are trying to do this?

There are a lot of reasons..the mains are 1) the large offer of broadband lines: everywhere there are ADSL lines with 1 or more megabit, which allows to see quickly sites 2) script languages (PHP or ASP NET) which allow to create great dynamic sites which are like apps you use at office 3) to demonstrate that to create such things is more than possible...IT'S REAL! think: a lot of sites are beautiful ok..but after some times a few peoples remember it...my site is a real dynamic site which is ALWAYS updated, at every moment you can find new things..and this with the collaboration of a lot of peoples..if i did a static site i must wait for someone who send me some race result for example..but now everyone can do everything he wants...
And a lot of peoples write me and tell me that it's a great idea..for a lot of peoples who don't know the 99% of races in the world...a great site for beginners! and with the contribute of experts..

There are already several excellent sites listing results of different series, forix and silhouet.com come immediately to mindand there are others covering sports cars, NASCAR, CART etc. It would be far more useful to the motor racing community if you were to specialise in an area that has not been fully researched. As you are Italian, the Italian racing scene is an obvious choice: internationally you have the Italian GP, the Targa, the Mille Miglia, all the non-championship F1 races at Syracusa, Napoli, etc, the non-championship sports car races at Mugello, garda, etc. Then you have all the Italian national races. That would be a far more valuable task than simply plagiarising the research that has gone into other sites.

I don't want to plagiarising nothing...my source is the italian newspaper AUTOSPRINT from 1968,a nd i want to insert all the possible race results i find in its pages! and as you can see my site is very extensible: when you insert a race can insert comments on the race, on the winner, on the car, on the track..on EVERYTHING.
It's obvious that only passionate of racing can use and update my site and i think these passionates are intelligent enough to insert what they want to see. And to retrive all informations which are diffuclt to retrieve in other sites: for example for minor formulas.

You also appear to say that you want anybody to be able to add races and modify them. This is extremely dangerous and could destroy the credibility of your site. How long will it be before somebody decides it would be fun to add fictitious races or maybe in all sincerity add some of the spoof results that magazines have published on April 1st. If you look at some of the discussions on, for example, the AtlasF1 historical forum you will realise that even the contemporary published record is not necessarily correct. You would be better advised to invite contributions but insist on knowing the source and on checking them yourself.

if a record isn't correct..this is a great reason to see my site, to correct wrong datas! or not?

If you are really interested in recording motor racing history and publishing it on the web I suggest you would be well advised to contact the 'owners' of some established sites and offer to work in collaboration with them rather than set up in competition.

it would be a great idea..but also a little of competition is necessary to improve these sites or not?

Finally, as your site grows how do you propose to fund it?

you must think that i have this site for 25 euros every year..and if it grows i want to convert the database in MySQL, an OPEN SOURCE database..(thing that i am doing now...) where is the problem?

[D-Type]

I thought I had seen this before smewhere then I remembered a This link on AtlasF1 which you started under the name of Robycore.

Before going any further with your site I think you should read what people have already told you and ask yourself what you are trying to achieve.

The main performance requirement for any internet database is ACCURACY.

Opening up your embryo site I see you have a section titled '24 Hours du Le Mans'. In French the name of the town is le Mans with a lower case 'le'. As you have half noticed the french do not use 'de le' they use 'du'. so the title should read '24 Heures du Mans' or in English '24 hours of le Mans'

.... Accuracy? .....

[Emulmans]

i want to say another thing...in some of the forums where i have posted the announce for my site i see...FEAR. for what you say? fear for changes. I want to do something NOBODY has done before. There is a consolitdated community of passionates of racing cars and it's a great thing. But now that i want to establish (modestly) a new standard for these sites, thanks to the new technologies which allow this..i notice fear...someone tell me if i want to eat and destroy every site of the genre. For me is the moment to change: as i said in the rpevious post, teh actual web technologies allow this and why not to create a new generation of sites where everyone can update the site, without restrictions? in thgis way tehre isn't only the webmaster who mantain the site..but everyone can do it with sites like mine!
I hope to open a new way to do web sites..i want to demonstrate that it is possible...why limit only to static web sites without no type of interaction with users?

[Emulmans]

Originally posted by D-Type
I thought I had seen this before smewhere then I remembered a This link on AtlasF1 which you started under the name of Robycore.

Before going any further with your site I think you should read what people have already told you and ask yourself what you are trying to achieve.

The main performance requirement for any internet database is ACCURACY.

Opening up your embryo site I see you have a section titled '24 Hours du Le Mans'. In French the name of the town is le Mans with a lower case 'le'. As you have half noticed the french do not use 'de le' they use 'du'. so the title should read '24 Heures du Mans' or in English '24 hours of le Mans'

.... Accuracy? .....

and if it's so, go to modify the name ..it's just what i want other peoples do!

[Jeremy Jackson]

Originally posted by Emulmans
(snip)...why limit only to static web sites without no type of interaction with users?

I think you'll find that most of the people who have websites with results are more than happy to "interact" with users, and discuss any errors / updates of their data. That's been my experience anyway.

I would agree with D-type, and what has already been said on TNF. Rather than duplicate what's already available, find a specific area of "expertise". I would have thought the suggestion of National Italian racing is ideal, as it is not largely covered anywhere else, to my knowledge

I keep extensive records in linked Access databases, and you've got to draw a line somewhere, believe me.

I'm not sure why you think competition should work. After all in most caes, it's the same data that's being used. A race result is a race result, and if errors have crept in to some website data, then, as I mentioned above, the creators are usually quick to amend anything that's brought to their notice.

[Emulmans]

Originally posted by Jeremy Jackson
I'm not sure why you think competition should work. After all in most caes, it's the same data that's being used. A race result is a race result.

perhaps i don't explain well...as you can see, there aren't only statistics: when i enter a car data or a winner data i can insert everything about the car, teh winner, the track, the race etc. So, i don't want to do a list of races merely: a complete encyclopaedia.
As D-Type said, there is need of accuracy. And here if i enter a wrong data someone can fix it.
If someone enter for example the complete sudafrican atlantic series in the 70th..it's something almost unknown, but perhaps another find here some errors and correct them. Here is the challenge: to verify the experience of a lot of peoples, to know better races. And if said for example that in the first lap of a certain race there was an accident among ten cars..it's not only a statistic site as i said before, but a complete knowledge.

And as i said before, for me the future is this: web sites where all can interact LIVE with the site, and not to wait the webmaster answer for example.

[Emulmans]

Ah another thing...D-Type tell me that is better if i concentrate on italian races: nice thing, but...now i'm completing a big searching engine for my archive, which allows to do searches like you want, for example "i want to see all italian formula races of 1970" or "how many races were run on the Misano Circuit in 1982?" or "how many races won the driver XXXX on car YYYY on track ZZZZ?"
So there isn't the need to concentrate only on national races: insert how many races is possible and when you search them in every order you want!

[paulSenna]

Anyone can amend the database? This is a recipe for disaster. There are too many trolls around the internet world. It's just a question of how long before the whole thing collapses IMHO.

[David McKinney]

As an example, how does this work?
1) You post the result of a specific 1956 race giving the winner of a race as Joe Bloggs (Ferrari)
2) I know Bloggs always drove Maseratis, so I change the listing to Maserati
3) Contributor B remembers that Fred Smith was the bloke in the Maserati in that particular race, so changes the driver’s name
4) Contributor C was at the meeting, and remembers Smith withdrawing from the race at the last minute, and letting Bill Jones drive the car. He changes the driver name to Jones
5) Contributor D has access to the Autosport report, which gives Fred Smith as the winner, so changes it back again
6) Contributor E has the official results for the meeting, which show the winner was J Worthington Farnesbahns in a Lotus, so changes the listing accordingly
7) Contributor F rememers Farnesbahns winning in 1957, but not in 1956…

Need I go on?

[Nordic]

David M, I think you will find Farnesbahns is spelt Franesbahns and it was 56.

I think we can all see what Emulmans is trying to do, create a live and wide rangeing info source. But as there seems to be smaller specialsied sites that already contain all the info likley to to be listed, then disputed, it is not going to be relible.

It would surley be better to start smaller and then conquer the e.world based on that.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by paulSenna
Anyone can amend the database? This is a recipe for disaster. There are too many trolls around the internet world. It's just a question of how long before the whole thing collapses IMHO.

I think this is what people are trying to tell you. It is not FEAR of what you are proposing it is more a warning that what you are proposing is vulnerable to sabotage. Not everyone out there has the degree of personal integrity that you are assuming.

If you were to change your approach to "Anyone can apply to participate in the upkeep of this database" you would deal with this. A co-operative database might be feasible but an open one would not.

I deliberately selected the du Le Mans / Du Mans / du Mans example to make the point to you. How do you know that what I have said is correct? If I don't remember what my French teacher taught me correctly I might be completely wrong. I know that what I said was more correct than what you have written, but I genuinely don't know whether the French call the city le Mans or Le Mans.

[Vitesse]

Emulmans: there is a saying in English -

"Great oaks from little acorns grow"

In other words - start small and grow from there. Limit your horizons and they are reachable: first of all you might only grow a bonsai tree, but at least it's a complete tree!

Do as was suggested - start building an Italian database. As you trawl through your magazines you may find details of Italian or other races which may help others who have built their own results sites - FORIX, F2 Register, F3 Register,ETCC, Tasman Series, WSPR etc etc. That is co-operative research: as I told you at Atlas and David has demonstrated above, what you are proposing is a recipe for anarchy.

[Frank de Jong]

Guys, we had al this before. Either Emulman/s site will be a huge succes, or it will disappear after a few months. Go ahead Emulmans, prove us all wrong! I don't doubt your enthusiasm but don't understimate the work it will take you.

[Emulmans]

Originally posted by Frank de Jong
Guys, we had al this before. Either Emulman/s site will be a huge succes, or it will disappear after a few months. Go ahead Emulmans, prove us all wrong! I don't doubt your enthusiasm but don't understimate the work it will take you.

and in fact i want that a lot of peoples collaborate, inserting, modifying, updating races as you like..i don't want to be the only who use the archive... I repeat, for me it's above all an exercise of programming. You can imagine how many time i spent on the scripts? there are dozen of pages everyone with a lot of scripts in ASP 3! this is really difficult..i put the basis, you do the work..to insert and updating races is almost easy, but in programming terms is hard to do something easy... and above all i want you find something to do (for example to add some voices to the data to add to every race), the errors to fix... that's all!
I cannot stay always on the site, i'm a certified Microsoft programmer and i have alot of work to do..i do this site in my free time!

[Frank de Jong]

Emulmans, people will contribute if you have something to show. Before asking results of the 1963-1967 period, I made sure that I entered all the results I had myself on the site. And that was a load of work.
What I've seen so far is 2004 - I'm not in the least interested in that, I guess most historians over here think the same. 2004 is all over the internet. Start with information from the 60's or 70's!

[Emulmans]

for me the 2004 year is only a starting point, to see if all is working properly..and in the UPDATES page youc an see the years i have entered...a few thing, but to start..buyt i repeat i don't want to be the only person to enter an incredible amount of races...if someone want to collaborate with me to check the archive for example perfect!

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Emulmans
[...]for me it's above all an exercise of programming [...]

Ah now I get it!

You understand computers but you apparently do not understand human nature. Nor do you appreciate the need to consider wahat the user wants.

[allenbrown]

I agree with D-Type.

There was also a lot of programming involved in my site but the real work was researching results and owners, collating the data other people sent me and resolving issues. In other words, quality control is a big issue. Some people I can trust to have been diligent but not everyone. There still needs to be a central editor who ensures overall quality. That's what you're missing.

Allen

[coyotes]

We REALLY do not understand the interest of such a site. We've visited it and it's empty ! If it's a training for programming it may be nice for its author but, sorry, we are absolutely not interested in it.
We spend a lot of time surfing on the web in order to get information and do not have any to loose while visiting empty pages.
Please forgive our english, we're french and do not speak or write it correctly.

[Emulmans]

Originally posted by coyotes
We REALLY do not understand the interest of such a site. We've visited it and it's empty ! If it's a training for programming it may be nice for its author but, sorry, we are absolutely not interested in it.

This is absurd. My site it isn't empty, i have inserted all 2004 races an d now i want to insert all races in my Autosprint collection. I have opened the site a few days ago, what do you think to find it now? all the world races from 1900 to 2004 yet?

We spend a lot of time surfing on the web in order to get information and do not have any to loose while visiting empty pages.
Please forgive our english, we're french and do not speak or write it correctly.

Perhaps you are afraid a lot of peoples don't visit other sites? are you sure the pages of my site are empty? have you searched something?

and again: i have followed some advice by D-Type and now anybody tell me something? now only registered users can submit or update races. And nobody tell me if now is a reasonable site, if i must add something useful...

[coyotes]

Cool down! You seem to be vey sensitive.

We just say that your site is far to be an encyclopedia of motorsport, perharps we don't know how to use it (...)

Seriousely when a site is on line it has to be almost complete. It is not correct for visitors to publish an almost empty shell. You can test with friends.
You say that you will put information so let know when these information will be published ie: when your site will be ready to be visited.

By the way, we are not afraid of anything and don't mind if people visit our site, or other sites, or not.

[Emulmans]

We just say that your site is far to be an encyclopedia of motorsport, perharps we don't know how to use it (...)

in fact my site want to be a resource for everyone who wants to retrieve rapidly informations about races without to search it on the web, just like an encyclopaedia i think...

Seriousely when a site is on line it has to be almost complete. It is not correct for visitors to publish an almost empty shell. You can test with friends.

i repeat this is absurd. have you tried to search something? where are empty pages in my site? tell me...

You say that you will put information so let know when these information will be published ie: when your site will be ready to be visited.

this is the demonstration you haven't tried to use seriously my site: you searched only pages with informations without searching in the SEARCH section.

By the way, we are not afraid of anything and don't mind if people visit our site, or other sites, or not.

Excuse me..how many peoples are you?? and i have checked you site: one on the lot of web sites similars with some race results. You believed that when you enter in my site wanted to see races results? no, no..the results are in a database, and you must search them...and you too can add results or modify them, try...