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30 May 2013, 16:52 (Ref:3255537)
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#1251 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 1,869
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This may be an old thought, but I figure there will be a number of teams that don't make it from 2013 to 2014, probably in GAGT. I reckon that World Challenge could stand to benefit. If those teams leave Grand Am, would it be outside the realm of possibility that they move to WC?
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30 May 2013, 17:12 (Ref:3255547)
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#1252 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,892
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JJ09, I have a much harder time justifying the presence of any of the Prototypes if they're little or no faster than the GTEs. Also, one would expect the Prototype and Prototype Challenge cars to have more limited development than will be the case with GT, which means it would not be all that long until the GTEs were outright faster.
The GT1s of the mid and late '90s were a special case. Not even in the late '70s and early '80s did you have quite that same setup. Back with Group 5/GTX and Group 6, the reason the GTs won so much was the lack, or utter absence, of the full-on, Group 6 machinery. It took special circumstances, often in endurance races, for the 935s, 512BBLMs, etc to be right in there with the A442s, T33s, and 936s. The '90s GT1s were MUCH further from standard road going fare than the current GTEs, especially once you got into 1997-99. They were VERY limited-production cars to begin with, and then became homologation specials toward the end. A Venturi or a McLaren F1 is rare enough, but where are you going to buy a Porsche 911 GT1 98, Lotus Elise GT1, Mercedes-Benz CLR, McLaren F1 Longtail, or Nissan R390? And the ACO made an effort to allow these cars to compete with the WSCs, not that they needed much help to begin with anyway. Besides, having the cars too mixed in with one another becomes confusing for the less-initiated, and downright irritating for the competitors, who, if they cannot win overall, are only concerned with their in-class standing. BTW, intra-class refers to being within the same class. the WSC/GT1 competition of the '90s was INTER-class competition, rather like the unintended competition between LMP675/LMP900 and LMP1/LMP2. As it is, we'll have two groups of cars going for the overall in, in theory, that have very different performance characteristics. Adding PCs and GTEs into the mix just muddies the waters beyond recognition. Regardless, the DPs will probably win Daytona due to their straight-line speed; you have to have one hell of an advantage to pass through corners, because that often means having to go around the outside, and GTEs do NOT have that kind of cornering advantage over any of the Prototypes that will be in USCR. |
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__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain. |
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30 May 2013, 18:08 (Ref:3255570)
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#1253 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,648
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Quote:
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30 May 2013, 18:12 (Ref:3255572)
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#1254 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,325
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__________________
Ceterum censeo GTE-Am esse delendam. |
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30 May 2013, 18:15 (Ref:3255574)
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#1255 | |
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Racer
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 403
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It wouldn't surprise me if USCR slowed down GTEs. They did this to the GT1 cars in the 90s so the Panoz GTR-1's and Porsche 911 GT1's were not allowed to compete for the overall win. Grand Am and its ancestors have never sped up cars, they've just slowed others down throughout their history to create the outcome they desire.
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30 May 2013, 18:18 (Ref:3255575)
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#1256 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,919
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Quote:
L.P. 
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Probae esti in segetem sunt deteriorem datae fruges, tamen ipsae suaptae enitent |
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30 May 2013, 18:19 (Ref:3255576)
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#1257 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,919
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Quote:
So true! L.P.
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__________________
Probae esti in segetem sunt deteriorem datae fruges, tamen ipsae suaptae enitent |
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30 May 2013, 18:22 (Ref:3255578)
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#1258 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,648
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Why did the Eagle MK III beat every DP car around Laguna Seca?
Or is that hate too? |
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30 May 2013, 18:22 (Ref:3255579)
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#1259 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,892
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Actually, horsepower was cut for 1993, with a reported output of just 700-hp, compared with 800+hp for 1992. Also, the Eagle went from 832kg in 1992 to 914kg in 1993, yet it continued to set lap records, including the one at Daytona.
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/ToyotaEagleMkIII.html (The funny thing is, the DP pace was said to be based on the initial times set by the Porsche 962 in 1984, but that 1:50.989 was set on the old layout, with the back straight chicane. To be accurate, the mark they should have been shooting for in 2003 was the 1:41.508 set at the 1984 Daytona Finale. So, they completely misread history, at their own track, and created the slowest "top" class of Prototypes since Can-Am. I just have to laugh and shake my head.) |
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__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain. |
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30 May 2013, 18:27 (Ref:3255584)
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#1260 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,919
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Uh, why did they quit using rocket fuel? I want to see 3500hp hemi power in a Viper goin down the Mulsanne!
 L.P.
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__________________
Probae esti in segetem sunt deteriorem datae fruges, tamen ipsae suaptae enitent |
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30 May 2013, 18:42 (Ref:3255592)
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#1261 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,648
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Quote:
Then when they run out of excuses, they'll attack the poster directly. That is what they do. |
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30 May 2013, 18:43 (Ref:3255594)
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#1262 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,892
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Oh, chill, Dawg! Not even the 917/30 used nitro-methane! Sheesh!
Besides, all that power doesn't matter so much ever since they put in the chicanes at Dunlop and on the Mulsanne. They created a track that was much more favorable to higher downforce/drag settings, and what happened? Yeah, exactly what would be expected of the car builders, and we ***** about aero-dependence all the time now. Alright, I just needed to say that. Now, back to the proper thread topic. They're NOT going to be able to afford to slow the GTEs down. Corvette, SRT, and BMW will not hear of it, I'm sure. The first two, at the least, can just move over to the WEC. BMW will be ****ed to get slowed down after doing the GTE program on the Z4. There would also be the issue of the new 991 RSR, and what point would there be in getting one if the GTEs are slowed noticeably? On the flip side, getting out of the loop as a major Porsche customer team would NOT be good for those teams over here. Maybe something good can come out of this, if USCR allows Corvette to actually run the 6.2-litre unit from the road car; if the FIA/ACO could let in the Viper, they can relax the displacement rule on the Pratt & Miller boys also. (Speaking of the Viper's engine, I wish Alfa would do a GTE program with the TZ3.) Back to class separation for a moment, if GA wanted less delineation between DP and GA GT, I think they would have implemented such measures already. The long and the short is still that DP HAS TO speed up. Either they do that, or everyone else has to get slower, and I think I know which camp of team owners is going to be larger, the one that includes P1, P2, PC, GTLM, AND GTD teams! If the DP owners try to be too strident in their stubbornness, the rest of the grid can just comprehensively out-vote them with the Series' management. Last edited by Purist; 30 May 2013 at 19:03. |
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The only certainty is that nothing is certain. |
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30 May 2013, 18:48 (Ref:3255597)
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#1263 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,325
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Quote:
Why are 2011 LMP1s 8 seconds faster than current designs around LM? Why are current LMP2s 5 seconds slower round Sebring than in 2008? What it comes down to is that I don't care the least bit about absolute speed. Every ruleset, other than maybe Pikes Peak, arbitrarily limits the cars to a certain performance level that falls way short of what's technologically possible. Some set that limit at higher speeds than others, but none of them are anywhere close to what's theoretically possible. Just look at how puny power levels are these days compared to the 1970s or 1980s and think how fast they could go with 1000+ bhp. Given a proper budget, I have no doubt that one could build a car that does a lap of Circuit de la Sarthe in under 3 minutes and I don't hear anyone complaining about how the 3.25s or so done today are too slow.... What makes racing interesting for me is competition - I wan't 20+ cars per class in an all out war, and I really couldn't care less how fast they go in absolute terms, because they'll never ever going to be close to the limit of what's possible, anyway. |
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Ceterum censeo GTE-Am esse delendam. |
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30 May 2013, 18:50 (Ref:3255602)
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#1264 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,648
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Quote:
2012 Audi was 2 seconds faster than the 2011 version. And they will be 3-5 seconds faster than last year. |
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30 May 2013, 18:54 (Ref:3255605)
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#1265 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,325
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Alright, I had the wrong year... 2010 it was when Peugeot went all the way down to a 3.19... still seems like yesterday - hadn't realized the new engine regs were already in use in 2011.
My point still stands, though: Outright speed is worthless without competition and the Eagle had none. |
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Ceterum censeo GTE-Am esse delendam. |
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30 May 2013, 18:54 (Ref:3255606)
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#1266 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,919
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Quote:
 Pray tell what is the relevance of a fact from 1992 from another series have to do with the current subject? In fact...nothing!L.P.
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Probae esti in segetem sunt deteriorem datae fruges, tamen ipsae suaptae enitent |
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30 May 2013, 18:56 (Ref:3255607)
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#1267 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,648
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30 May 2013, 18:56 (Ref:3255608)
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#1268 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,919
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Quote:
L.P.
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__________________
Probae esti in segetem sunt deteriorem datae fruges, tamen ipsae suaptae enitent |
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30 May 2013, 19:00 (Ref:3255611)
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#1269 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 5,892
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The past of Sportscar racing shapes our present perceptions of the sport, so it IS relevant. Also, Speed-King was trying to generalize, and his figures were inaccurate; 700-hp is NOT double 500-hp, and that's assuming the DPs have gained ZERO horsepower since 2003, which I HIGHLY doubt.
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__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain. |
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30 May 2013, 19:01 (Ref:3255612)
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#1270 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,648
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Quote:
3 years to get back to roughly the same speed, while Grand Am hasn't yet gotten there in 21 years. The Eagle MK III set the Laguna track record in 1992 and they were going against Jaguar and Nissan. |
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30 May 2013, 19:09 (Ref:3255619)
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#1271 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,325
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Quote:
How long it takes them to get back is inmaterial... the point is that speed limits set by the rules are arbitrary and they alone don't make or break a racing series for me. |
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__________________
Ceterum censeo GTE-Am esse delendam. |
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30 May 2013, 19:12 (Ref:3255621)
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#1272 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,648
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30 May 2013, 19:14 (Ref:3255622)
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#1273 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 22
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Quote:
I know math & physics is tough for some people, but really, this is sixth grade stuff here. |
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30 May 2013, 19:14 (Ref:3255623)
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#1274 | |||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,325
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Quote:
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__________________
Ceterum censeo GTE-Am esse delendam. |
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30 May 2013, 19:18 (Ref:3255627)
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#1275 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,648
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