Nico (DEU) vs TGF (DEU) 2 - Page 7

Schummy · 20 May 2011, 21:33 (Ref:2883285)

Ross Brawn said MS in Turkey was incredibly strong until final qualifying. I don't know what he is talking about, Rosberg-Schumacher's gap along the sessions (until Q2) were: +0.1 +0.5 -0.4 +0.2 +0.3. What was very strong was the car, but MS was "smothered" again by Nico in the usual way (in the last year and a half).

RB clearly cannot say "Michael will not recover", so he saying "Michael will recover" doesn't have any meaning. It is just the required (political) answer about the issue.

Today, Friday, another "bad day in Paradise" for the 7-times: +0.6 and +0.4 for Nico in the two Free sessions. Until now free sessions had been the best sessions for MS, so let's see how goes the weekend.

wnut · 21 May 2011, 00:34 (Ref:2883331)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schummy

Ross Brawn said MS in Turkey was incredibly strong until final qualifying. I don't know what he is talking about, Rosberg-Schumacher's gap along the sessions (until Q2) were: +0.1 +0.5 -0.4 +0.2 +0.3. What was very strong was the car, but MS was "smothered" again by Nico in the usual way (in the last year and a half).

RB clearly cannot say "Michael will not recover", so he saying "Michael will recover" doesn't have any meaning. It is just the required (political) answer about the issue.

Today, Friday, another "bad day in Paradise" for the 7-times: +0.6 and +0.4 for Nico in the two Free sessions. Until now free sessions had been the best sessions for MS, so let's see how goes the weekend.

In Practice 3 with the car in qualifying trim he was .001 behind Vettel and .383 ahead of Rosberg.

Don't let your dislike of the man weaken the whole forum when you bend the facts to try and support your agenda!

I would expect better from you!

Knowlesy · 21 May 2011, 01:32 (Ref:2883341)

Meltdown!

Schummy · 21 May 2011, 01:37 (Ref:2883342)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wnut

In Practice 3 with the car in qualifying trim he was .001 behind Vettel and .383 ahead of Rosberg.

Don't let your dislike of the man weaken the whole forum when you bend the facts to try and support your agenda!

I would expect better from you!

The truth hurts

.

First of all I don't dislike "the man". Second and more important, I bring a lot of numbers to this thread because I know discussion about "sensible" things tends to go on pointlessly.

You only mention (by the way, I mentioned it earlier in my post) Practice 3 result. What convenient. It was the only session (including race) where MS was ahead of NR. Gap with Vettel is not of interest, because there exists the car factor. The most definitive comparison we can do is with team mates. We have a year and a half doing it, and I expected by now the message is pretty clear: Rosberg (genius driver or not) is beating consistently Michael.

I mentioned data about Turkey (and I put emphasis on "data") because it shows Ross Brawn's comments are just political. Yes, MS bettered NR in P3 in qualifying trim, but, surprise, NR beat MS in Q1 and Q2 (and obviously in Q3). Probably MS forgot to put qualifying setup in Qs...

I think all this is already beyond discussion, after so many races. The discussion is if MS will be better than his team mate in the *future* GPs, the past is already lost. If he is not better than Nico, the next discussion is if MS will drive next season in F1.

Mr V · 21 May 2011, 10:10 (Ref:2883459)

After this mornings session. Michael was 3rd (1.3 seconds now behind Vettel), but looking "the best of the rest".

Lets see if he can convert that into a better weekend, or, if again, Nico will somehow turn it round over him.

beau1 · 22 May 2011, 15:34 (Ref:2883941)

Decent race from Michael today. Great start once again too.

Mr V · 22 May 2011, 15:38 (Ref:2883946)

Well done to Micheal, some fair, but forceful defending on his team mate. Nico says his rear wing wasn't working today but all the same Michael did well today.

E.B · 22 May 2011, 18:01 (Ref:2884014)

The results will show that Michael beat Nico today by next to nothing. But it is equally obvious his pace was still far below that of Nico, who would easily catch up to Michael but be unable to pass. The non functioning DRS of Nico provides the answer to the question why was Nico unable to pass him.

I was hoping for a "Nico is faster than you Michael, do you understand?" moment. We need one of those to give Michael a real understanding of what it is like to be #2 to an up and coming youngster.

But at the end of the day for whatever reasons, Michael won the points for highest place. But Catalunya has always been somewhere he has shone.... other than 2000 when he was the last person (before Webber today) to NOT win the Spanish GP at Catalunya, from pole.

Has Michael turned the corner, and we will finally see him more of a match for Nico..... or is it more a case of his strength at Catalunya. After all it was here last year that he beat Nico in the race. Michael beating Nico in a GP is, IIRC, something that only happened in Turkey and Spain last year (in races where they both finished.)

Michael certainly looked far more comfortable this weekend than the previous GP where he was to be frank, really not with the programme at all.

Massa_number1 · 22 May 2011, 19:52 (Ref:2884067)

not a bad drive really from Schumacher Rosberg was faster by a small margin of course but Schumacher had a great start and took some risks that paid off and maximised his chances so you have to say he was the better driver today

he won the battle but Rosbergs still winning the war cant wait till Monaco I have a sneaky feeling if schumacher gets a decent grid position in quali he might just shine id love it if it was a wet race too

Knowlesy · 23 May 2011, 00:22 (Ref:2884171)

That was better. Not great, but better.

Louis Agilais · 23 May 2011, 05:39 (Ref:2884220)

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B

I was hoping for a "Nico is faster than you Michael, do you understand?" moment. We need one of those to give Michael a real understanding of what it is like to be #2 to an up and coming youngster.

It's really a fascinating phenomenon the hate that Michael Schumacher can grasp around him. Yes, hate, it's the only way I can explain such a cloudment in judgement... I think I heard the Brundle/DC duo saying something similar in the commentary for today's race. "Do you think Merceder should say to Michael that 'Nico is faster than him'?"..

Are you/they real? Or just not thinking straight? Is by any chance Nico Rosberg a championship conteder? Why should Mercedes give team orders to change places between its drivers if it doesn't change anything?

Michael already said he agrees with team orders (but of course only for the championship) like in Germany last year (agreed with Ferrari's move, because Alonso was in front and able to chalenge for the WDC). And already proved he can also take them, like in 1999 when Irvine was a contender and he wasn't (suzuka). he confirmed pre-race he would let Eddie pass, if the situation would arise (as a matter in fact, it did arise, and he did do it; Eddie's words afterwards: "this guy is depressing, not only he's the best nr 1 driver, he's also the best nr 2 driver").

so, E.B., are you serious? or is just hate salivating from you?

Mr V · 23 May 2011, 10:10 (Ref:2884337)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Agilais

It's really a fascinating phenomenon the hate that Michael Schumacher can grasp around him. Yes, hate, it's the only way I can explain such a cloudment in judgement... I think I heard the Brundle/DC duo saying something similar in the commentary for today's race. "Do you think Merceder should say to Michael that 'Nico is faster than him'?"..

I think they were being ironic, after all, that's what we would have heard in the Ferrari days if Michael was behind his team mate.

Just something for you to ponder, as obviously a Michael fan. Eddie Jordan said something interesting on saturday (and i don't usually agree with anything that EJ says) if the name wasn't Michael Schumacher, would Mercades maybe be looking at a driver change (or words to that effect, i can't remember the exact sentance).

Louis Agilais · 23 May 2011, 11:24 (Ref:2884376)

Actually, I had thought about that,, but arrived yet to a different conclusion. Would everyone "forget" his previous career, and only judge him by his results now (like it should be done), what would people say? Probably the same they said of Hulkenberg and Kobaiashi last year or Perez and di Resta this year..
Come on, be honest with yourself

and a litle bit to eager to be ironic, don't you think? couldn't wait for a 1-2 or closer to make the joke?

Louis Agilais · 23 May 2011, 11:30 (Ref:2884382)

in his "rookie" year he has had 2 fourth places, just below his more "experienced" teammate, who has had 2 third places. and this year 2-2 in results. even though he's a bit of the pace, he seems to deliver where it counts. let's watch him grow up.

now, doesn't that analysis seems a bit more fair than EJ's, or DC's or MB's. Are you really gonna tell me there's not a grudge in those two?

Razzzor · 23 May 2011, 11:52 (Ref:2884405)

Well Schumi definitely wins at starts. Has he actually lost a place at the start in ANY race since his return last year? I'm struggling to think that he has... His starts are brilliant race after race.

Rosberg was clearly faster again, but I guess Mercedes wanted Schumi to stay ahead since they'd pit them one after the other all race long. Maybe to give Schumi a bit of motivation. Rosberg might eat him up at Monaco though, despite Michael's performance there (he should have smashed Hill's record years ago if he had a bit more Monaco luck).

Louis Agilais · 23 May 2011, 12:06 (Ref:2884412)

No, that's just what teams do (pit first (or give the option to) the guy who is in front on the race, so not to leave him exposed to the undercut of his teammate), at least the teams who don't make a clear choice pre-season.

Schummy · 23 May 2011, 13:24 (Ref:2884460)

Update after Spain.

Code:

       Fri1  Fri2  Sat1   Q1    Q2    Q3    FL   Median Score 
 ============================================================	 
| AUS  +0.5  -0.9  +0.3  +0.1  +0.4  +inf  +1.8   +0.4   6-1 |
| MAL  -0.9  -0.5  -0.0  -0.4  +0.6  +inf  +0.7   -0.0   3-4 |
| CHI  +0.9  +0.2  +0.5  +0.2  +0.6  +inf  +0.0   +0.5   7-0 | 
| TUR  +0.1  +0.5  -0.4  +0.2  +0.3  +1.1  +0.6   +0.3   6-1 |
| SPA  +0.6  +0.4  -0.3  -0.5  +0.1  +inf  +0.3   +0.3   5-2 |
 ============================================================
                      R E S U M E
 ============================================================
| Med  +0.5  +0.2  -0.0  +0.1  +0.4  +inf  +0.6   +0.3   6-1 |
| Score 4-1   3-2   2-3   3-2   5-0   5-0   5-0    6-1  27-8 |
 ============================================================

A very normal GP for the pair (in relative gaps). Nico wins 5-2 sessions with a median gap of +0.3.

Last season MS got more points than NR in 4 four races against 14 races for Nico (score 14-4). This season the "score" is 2-2, but, as last season, NR has about double points than MS.

Now the total score for sessions is 27-8 and the median gap is +0.3.

Mr V · 23 May 2011, 13:32 (Ref:2884467)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Agilais

and a litle bit to eager to be ironic, don't you think? couldn't wait for a 1-2 or closer to make the joke?

Will Merc ever get 1-2? Maybe MB and DC's contract don't run that long

You mention hate earlier, i don't think people hate Michael, but i do think that they are enjoying seem him struggle against a good team mate.

I get the impression that Michael looked at Jenson's 2009 season, thought that he could come back and do exactly the same thing.

but things have changed......

Michael is not the driver he was.

Mercades are not Ferrari, favouring him the way Ferrari used to.

His team mate is now allowed to race against and indeed beat him.

E.B · 23 May 2011, 16:42 (Ref:2884571)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Agilais

so, E.B., are you serious? or is just hate salivating from you?

I am seriously serious. Albeit with tongue in cheek. I like 'what goes round comes around.' After all no one would pretend he was Team Leader. That is clearly Rosberg.

Why am I serious? Michael clearly was not as fast as Rosberg by a fair margin given the ease that Rosberg closed him in when a gap formed.

Had Rosberg been allowed to pass Schumacher earlier on then there is no reason to suspect that Rosberg would have passed the Ferrari of Alonso. That would increase their constructors point being not the matter of just trading places. Some might say that it as selfish of Michael to think of his own interests before the team's. Yes he beat Nico, seemingly for the first time in ages, but HE (Michael) knows he was not in real terms as fast as Nico, and would have been eating his dust had Nico had an operational DRS.

BTW I dont hate Schumacher... dont like him particularly or his attitude much (I used to be one of his major fans in the early stage of his career, up until Adelaide 1994 I guess.) I do think Mercedes would be better off with someone they can look to the future with like Hulkenberg or Di Resta. They would likely at least match Schu's performance at this stage of their career and improve, as opposed to persevering with Michael, who is not improving.

I also find it sad that he has allowed his reputation, or legend perhaps is a better word, to be tarnished somewhat I believe. Hopefully Michael wont prolong the agony overly, as did say Graham Hill.

chris bailey · 23 May 2011, 16:51 (Ref:2884577)

A) I doubt Michael cares what any of us think.
B) I doubt any of us could do what he does, past his best or not.
C) Anyone who has posted 2674 times should really find something better to do with their time.

herowassenna · 23 May 2011, 16:54 (Ref:2884580)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

Michael is not the driver he was.

I've never been convinced he was ever that special in the first place. In both of his championship winning teams, he had the complete focus of the team behind him.
I believe he was the best on the track, but look at what he was up against.
Mika may have been respected by TGF but he only ever won in Newey equipment. When the race wasn't going his way, he flagged badly.
DC? Yeah right. Hill? Villeneuve, Kimi, JPM....
No, I'm sorry, between 1994 and 2006 TGF had full support from Brawn and Byrne (another genius designer) and Benetton and Ferrari management completely.
His team-mates were subserviant to the cause. I remember Rubens having to fly to Europe between 2 fly away races which completely ruined his races due to jet lag. That was to test tyres. Another thing that people forget, Bridgestone made rubber specifically for Ferrari.

I think Alonso was the only driver TGF felt was truly "great' and he won 2 WDC whilst Schumi still raced.

Things have changed significantly, races are no longer 3 or 4 sprints divided by pitstops, the car is always evolving as the fuel load get lighter.
There is no testing, something Schumi used to complete more than any other driver, bearing in mind Ferrari had two separate test teams and 4 drivers on hand all funded by Bridgestone to support his ambition.

Don't misunderstand, I'm a Ferrari fan, and loved that TGF won so much for us, but he was the best of a mediocre bunch and apart from his age, I believe this current generation is the best since the 80's generation.

Rosberg? Whatever the press says, he's not a great, he's good and yet he's showing up Schumi...

Louis Agilais · 23 May 2011, 18:19 (Ref:2884648)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

I get the impression that Michael looked at Jenson's 2009 season, thought that he could come back and do exactly the same thing.

come on, you're not thinking straight.. do you think MS wasn't following F1 prior to his returning? Anyone that followed 2009 had any doubt that JB only won because of his double difusor advantage (banned for 2010) in the beggining (6 in 7 wins)? And that despite the DD, RB had turned the game and was a much better team and the end of Chmpship, and therefore was gonna be the pace setters for 2010?
Of course he didn't return just because he was going to the winning team (they weren't winning anymore), like, in all of his career he never persued the better car (first Williams and then McLaren). And that, I think, is what is remarkable e admirable on his career and made him such a legend (and brought so much to the sport): going to Benetton and winning there. And then leave and going to Ferrari. And now, once again, going to the 4th strongest team.

(just on a side note, and for comparation purposes, anyone remembers the tantrum of Senna for not being able to sign for Williams, the best of the time because Prost was there and make sure Senna wouldn't be? and that is the difference between the two: two genious F1 drivers, but one really wanted to be regarded as the best of all time, and instead of persuing the best team went to the struggling team for the challenge of winning there. and did it)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V

but things have changed......

Michael is not the driver he was.

are we stating the obvious here? of course he's not. he has 42, he himself told he couldn't beat now a 25 year old Schumacher

and you didn't reply to any of my arguments from before

Louis Agilais · 23 May 2011, 18:31 (Ref:2884654)

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B

I am seriously serious. Albeit with tongue in cheek. I like 'what goes round comes around.' After all no one would pretend he was Team Leader. That is clearly Rosberg.

Why am I serious? Michael clearly was not as fast as Rosberg by a fair margin given the ease that Rosberg closed him in when a gap formed.

Had Rosberg been allowed to pass Schumacher earlier on then there is no reason to suspect that Rosberg would have passed the Ferrari of Alonso. That would increase their constructors point being not the matter of just trading places. Some might say that it as selfish of Michael to think of his own interests before the team's.

but yet, despite all of that, they didn't switched places, right? so maybe I'm right...
I guess Mercedes must have figured "there was no reason to suspect that Michael wouldn't have passed the Ferrari of Alonso" in the same way.
do you see why I talk about cloudment in judgement?

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B

Yes he beat Nico, seemingly for the first time in ages, but HE (Michael) knows he was not in real terms as fast as Nico, and would have been eating his dust had Nico had an operational DRS.

hmmm, so you conveniently forgot Sepang? Korea? Suzuka?
or 2 GP ago is an "age" for you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B

BTW I dont hate Schumacher... dont like him particularly or his attitude much (I used to be one of his major fans in the early stage of his career, up until Adelaide 1994 I guess.) I do think Mercedes would be better off with someone they can look to the future with like Hulkenberg or Di Resta. They would likely at least match Schu's performance at this stage of their career and improve, as opposed to persevering with Michael, who is not improving.

we all are entitled to our own opinions

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.B

I also find it sad that he has allowed his reputation, or legend perhaps is a better word, to be tarnished somewhat I believe. Hopefully Michael wont prolong the agony overly, as did say Graham Hill.

again, the same: your opinion. not an answer to the arguments I presented before...

**Adam43** · 23 May 2011, 20:52 (Ref:2884746)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Agilais

It's really a fascinating phenomenon the hate that Michael Schumacher can grasp around him. Yes, hate, it's the only way I can explain such a cloudment in judgement... I think I heard the Brundle/DC duo saying something similar in the commentary for today's race. "Do you think Merceder should say to Michael that 'Nico is faster than him'?"..

Are you/they real? Or just not thinking straight? Is by any chance Nico Rosberg a championship conteder? Why should Mercedes give team orders to change places between its drivers if it doesn't change anything?

Yes they are for real. Rather than demonstrating hate, they were musing about something quite interesting. This year there is more chance of team mates being close on track, but one being significantly faster. Should it become standard practice to let the faster driver have the clear track.

Get over the hate thing, there is no need to take it so personally. And accusing people of it unfairly is just as bad as demonstrating it.

We've had a little joke about team orders. As the current favoured expression round these parts goes "there is an elephant in the room". Oh no, it's not that, it's "deal with it". Perhaps less arguments, and more discussion.

Apart from anything else you'll encourage herowassenna!

Massa_number1 · 24 May 2011, 02:22 (Ref:2884886)

to suggest schumacher was never that great is really hard to take seriously

do you remember this is the guy in his first race quali 7th at spa a track he had never raced on? in a jordan? the went on to finish in the points in that same season for benetton 4 times in a row as a rookie?

the guy who raced in the spanish GP with only 5th gear to finish 3rd when the team told him over the radio to retire the car and he asked them to wait then adjusted his racing line so he could continue and was setting competitive laps to the disbelief of his team

the same guy who won 3 races in the Ferrari car of 1996 that Irvine (who knew how bad that car was) said he couldnt believe how schumacher did it.One of the races being Barcelona in the wet that provoked a watching stirling moss comment "it was like watching fangio"

1998 McLaren had a car that was so far ahead it lapped the whole field except one man in the first race (guess who) and that season he took the fight down to the last race which was an incredible feat given the pace of Mclarens car winning 6 races with some utterly amazing drives (hungary,monza)

breaking his leg in 1999 and coming back to dominate the race in sepang can you believe that? I wont even go into the championship years because his brilliance is there to see people tarnish his titles with shouts of team orders! car had tailor made tyres! and so on but thats because he created this situation for himself! he treated every part of f1 as important as the other.He made sure he had the best car ,best team, best chances to win and that included no team mate getting in his way.

damn they even changed the rules to try stop the red monster.Dont be fooled by saying this era of drivers are better that his previous the grid is closer in this era drivers are fighting with each other alot more people are able to show their skills alot due to the decreased gap in the field.
dont get me wrong vettel,alonso,and hamilton are up there with the greats in my opinion but the rest of the field is no better than what schumacher faced in his 1st career any man that wins a race with senna prost and mansell on the track deserves some respect right?

sorry for the long post and bad grammer its 4am and im getting by on coffee and sheer will to finish my work but i just find it silly that some people think schumacher isnt one of the 10 best drivers in f1 of all time look at the things people who have worked in f1 have said when commenting on his abilty.The guy was great truly great

i grew up watching F1 in the 90's and of course now the 00's and I havent seen any driver from this era do the things he did in his prime

oh yea and he is 42 years old and racing in formula one

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