Toyota/Mitsubishi

[pitlane 3]

Toyota's new marketing manager wants to enter the V8's.
Go to
http://www.mellor.net/mellor/enews.nsf/edition/$first

The photo looks funny with the cars doing a right hand turn.

[kmchow]

I can definitely see the dilemma. While it is nice to have only 2 makes the commentators can talk about, perhaps adding a 3rd, new import manufacturer can bring in additional fans and new sponsors to keep the series attractive.

OTOH, I'm sure everyone is familiar with Toyota's past and ugly history of driving up budgets and luring away of the top/crack teams from existing manufacturers.

If they could somehow forbid Toyota from trying to lure the top teams from jumping manufacturers for something like 3-5 years??

[RallyFreak]

Import Manufacturer? You mean all those Toyota's imported from Melbourne?

I think expanding the series could be good, considering Holden and Ford only seem interested in supporting 1 or 2 top teams so that the gap between the haves (HRT, SBR) and the have nots is only getting bigger. If I was GRM, DJR, BJR etc. I'd be looking forward to new money coming into the sport.

[barra]

Toyota worldwide would provide money I would believe especially with V8's going to China and maybe other plans to other countries. The Ford and Holden teams won't be able to compete with the budget, I believe anyway, as Ford and GM have no real need to promote Falcon and Commodore on a worldwide scale.
And is anyone really that passionate about there Avalon or Camry!!!!
there will be for's and againsts however I think you need to look at How Ford and Holden have supported this series when it wasn't strong, and the loyalty they have had to this series.
The other thing is, the strength of the series is very much driven by the passions we have for Ford or Holden, and I don't believe anyone's gotten into a fight about there Camry or Avalon before, and if they had, its prob about the only time Ford and Holden people have been as one!!!

[Venom XR]

A thread on ls1.com.au claims a poll conducted on the general public revealed 85% believe that the cars that raced Bathurst (minus safety features such as rollcages, the body kits...) are almost identical to the cars available in show rooms. We all know better, but as far as Holden/Ford are concerned, I don't think that they would be educating that 85% of the reality. That misconception aids their marketing, and Ford/Holden are great at milking it (Holden especially due to their current domination of that event.)

So if the greater section of the general public believe their SS Commodores and XR8 Falcons are just slapped up with rollcages, racing wheels, slicks and a neat body kit - how do you explain to them that a Toyota Avalon, which comes available in FWD and a V6, should be on the same bit of race track as the Ford/Holden mob if it's called V8 Supercars. Forget the fact that Toyota can source a US V8 crate engine block/heads as Holden/Ford teams do, and that the elements of Blueprint such as the suspension config can be slapped under an Avalon... Toyota don't sell an equivalent car to the SS or XR8 - a RWD car with a V8 engine, and on that basis alone they should forget the category until they produce something the general public could comprehend being there.

[Onlooker]

I think if either of these two (Mitsibishi or Toyota) really wnted to compete then they simply would make it possible.I doubt that the teams and owners would really be willing to take the gamble and have these entities drag the whole TEGA/AVESCO mob before the courts on some sort of anti competition platform potentually exposing how the franchise system works etc etc etc.
Not that Morris and co arn't already trying it on them selves,and that is the thin end of the wedge because if I were say Ellery,I would want my L2 upgraded with the additional benifits that accompany it.

[Wizzby]

Originally posted by Venom XR
A thread on ls1.com.au claims a poll conducted on the general public revealed 85% believe that the cars that raced Bathurst (minus safety features such as rollcages, the body kits...) are almost identical to the cars available in show rooms.

Oh dear...

[Aarrgh8]

IF Toyota were to enter V8 Supercar racing, I hope it would approach the series with better ethics and standards than when it entered F1. I'd have to choose my words very carefully to say what I mean, so rather than create any problems for this forum, I won't go into details. Those who follow F1 closely will know what I'm on about.

There is a book by Timothy Collings, released in 2001 titled "The Piranha Club - Power and influence in Formula One" that touches on this subject. Let's just say that according to T.Collings, Toyota's approach to F1 racing makes anything that any organisation competing in Supercar racing has done, regarding ethics and rules, look beyond reproach.

Apart from that, whatever slight credibility that Supercar racing might have in relevance to the road cars on which they're based would disappear if V8 Supercar versions of FWD V6s were competing.

[racer69]

Seeing as what we have now is hardly a Touring Car class, i am all for more manufacturers entering with whatever model they want, and i don't see why any expansion should be stopped at just Mitsubishi and Toyota.

[Onlooker]

Toyota would be no worse than say Mr T Walkinshaw or any of the other F1 heavy hitters and we seemed to have survived that onslaught,Bates has hardly ripped the guts out of the ARC in the years that he was/is backed by the company and NASCAR seem to get away ith racing cars that are all originally FWD with no great dramas,to the piont that they have now got almost a common siluete.I doubt that Pro Drive and 888 have been the model teams that the V8's must surely be!!!!!

[kmchow]

Originally posted by Venom XR
Toyota don't sell an equivalent car to the SS or XR8 - a RWD car with a V8 engine, and on that basis alone they should forget the category until they produce something the general public could comprehend being there.

Then another debate/question comes up. Is racing about promoting the exact mechanicals of a racecar or just the basic shape/model/manufacturer name? If it's the former then I can see a definite problem. If it's the latter, then there should be no problem with Toyota entering V8 supercars. Ford/Holden have pushed the latter theory for over 50 years in Nascar. What's the diff between Australia and the US?

Of course, while I prefer touring cars, ST style, the V8 supercar is attractive.

But then, this brings up another debate, can motorsport be considered a"sport" or "entertainment"? Entertainment doesn't have to be "real" or "fair". It just has to entertain people. A sport does try to be more unbiased.

[Onlooker]

If it were sport there would be no parity and may the best man win.

[Venom XR]

I see the point has been missed, except by Aaargh8.

Ford and Holden rely on the myth that the cars raced at Bathurst and at rounds of the V8 Supercar series 'resemble' those cars that they can buy from a showroom, and a poll indicating 85% firmly believe that to be true shows why Ford/Holden continue to use that misconception for their marketing purposes.

To allow Toyota to enter the category is to expose to those 85% the reality, and deny Ford/Holden the myth they've jointly created, invested in and profit from? How else do you explain the appearance of a FWD V6 Avalon that's now suddenly RWD with a V8 when no road going RWD V8 Avalon exists to buy to the public? What 'right' does Toyota have to just jump on the bandwagon now that they've seen the marketing benefits, without having something to sell to the public that, even if the Ford/Holden equiavalents are distantly related, are still V8s? None.

Yanks know NASCAR is a furphy, cos there is no RWD V8 Taurus remotely resembling the race car. But a V8 Supercar looks like an XR8 or an SS with body kits, racing wheel/tyres and a roll cage to the average Joe (apolagies to all clued in Joes.)

Maybe Toyota and Mitsu could get into bed with each other, and create V6 Wondercars or something - they don't belong in V8 Supercars until they make V8 road cars. It's that simple.

[Onlooker]

It is funny how everyone talks about how they invested in it,created it etc and nobody ever talks about hijacking the old class with Mike Raymonds help and creating something that there cars could compete in.Truth be known the teams are the ones that stuck there necks out with AVESCO and got it happening and if some of those teams can profit from being a factory team for a 3rd party good on them,face it GRM and CPR have buckleys of winning at the moment as do BJR and MLR

[Mattracer]

Originally posted by Venom XR
A thread on ls1.com.au claims a poll conducted on the general public revealed 85% believe that the cars that raced Bathurst (minus safety features such as rollcages, the body kits...) are almost identical to the cars available in show rooms. We all know better, but as far as Holden/Ford are concerned, I don't think that they would be educating that 85% of the reality. That misconception aids their marketing, and Ford/Holden are great at milking it (Holden especially due to their current domination of that event.)

So if the greater section of the general public believe their SS Commodores and XR8 Falcons are just slapped up with rollcages, racing wheels, slicks and a neat body kit - how do you explain to them that a Toyota Avalon, which comes available in FWD and a V6, should be on the same bit of race track as the Ford/Holden mob if it's called V8 Supercars. Forget the fact that Toyota can source a US V8 crate engine block/heads as Holden/Ford teams do, and that the elements of Blueprint such as the suspension config can be slapped under an Avalon... Toyota don't sell an equivalent car to the SS or XR8 - a RWD car with a V8 engine, and on that basis alone they should forget the category until they produce something the general public could comprehend being there.

Well said. I could not agree more!

[racer69]

Venom XR - Just because the public wrongly assumes something is no excuse to ban other manufacturers from competing. I still shake my head in disbelief every time it enters my head that other manufacturers aren't allowed in, & were kicked out to create what we have now.....

Does it say in the rules that the cars must be RWD? Sure the cars are called V8Supercars now, but they made that name up overnight, they can easily do it again.

[Aarrgh8]

Originally posted by Onlooker
Toyota would be no worse than say Mr T Walkinshaw or any of the other F1 heavy hitters and we seemed to have survived that onslaught,Bates has hardly ripped the guts out of the ARC in the years that he was/is backed by the company and NASCAR seem to get away ith racing cars that are all originally FWD with no great dramas,to the piont that they have now got almost a common siluete.I doubt that Pro Drive and 888 have been the model teams that the V8's must surely be!!!!!

I disagree about Toyota being no worse. In the WRC they disgraced themselves before excelling, and in F1 they disgraced themselves, but are still a long way from winning. I also don't think many of us on here want Supercars to be like NASCAR, and 'get away with racing cars that are all originally FWD'.

I DO agree with your comment: "If this were sport, there would be no parity and may the best man win." The Rugby World Cup is in town ATM. I didn't see Namibia getting freedoms to enable it to compete on equal terms with NZ, France, etc. Well, it did compete on equal terms. It just needed more freedoms.

Touring car racing with Minis, Cortinas and EH Holdens competing on equal terms seems so long ago.

[Hazza]

hahah can you see it now:
"Toyota Banned For Cheating?"
Geoff Grech - Toyota Team Manager:
"That wirring and hissing noise was the breaks...honest! turbo what?"

"Toyota charged with industrial espionage"
Geoff Grech: "the fact that i was working for HRT 1 month ago means nothing - industrial what?"

But thinking about it, V8Supercars is nearly ST
Just need bodyshell and an engine! (okay, so st you need a standard gearbox...but what the hey )

[Aarrgh8]

Yep, I wouldn't put it past Toyota to aim high and target the best team manager in the business. If he's got a contract, they'll pretend they didn't know about it - and pay him enough to say he that he knew nothing about it either. After that, he'll say what they want him to say.

Sorry for the cynicism, but to those who think HRO have had a way with rules and ethics and influence over the years - you really need to see how the tough players go about their business.

[Onlooker]

And if you don't exploit the rules to the full you are, as a manager ,"negligent in your duties".
It is all well and good for people to claim the moral high ground on one hand and then do something like setting up a closed shop on the other. We saw a glimpse of how desperate people are to retain the status quo when a few were deleted from the start list due to lack of speed,the hide of them to use a stop watch to judge participants in a timed event.

[Venom XR]

Originally posted by racer69
Venom XR - Just because the public wrongly assumes something is no excuse to ban other manufacturers from competing. I still shake my head in disbelief every time it enters my head that other manufacturers aren't allowed in, & were kicked out to create what we have now.....

Does it say in the rules that the cars must be RWD? Sure the cars are called V8Supercars now, but they made that name up overnight, they can easily do it again.

Yes, the rules have to say the base car has to be an Australian built, RWD car. And no, they won't change the V8 Supercars name overnight. It might be a category title, but it is also a brand name.

Think harder about the implications of letting Toyota into the category when they sell a V6 FWD car, when Holden are currently exploiting the fact their 'SS Commodore' has won Bathurst yet again. Bathurst has long been the motorsport event people who aren't heavily into motorsport watch. A win for Ford or Holden is marketing gold, and filters down to bragging rights in offices and schoolyards around the country. When a young kid sees a Commodore win Bathurst again without knowing the diff is a 9" Harrop unit, and the engine isn't a 5.7l LS1 - that creates a perception of a brand that wins, and is thus 'cool' and that potentially translates into brand loyalty when that kid becomes a car buying adult.

Ford/Holden don't spend those millions because V8 Supercars is 'fun'. The whole point is marketing cars on a perceived notion of winning performance, selling those cars and making profit, and having Ford/Holden let Toyota waltz into that multi-million dollar marketing machine that they share is lunacy.

If Toyota DID have a RWD V8 car, Ford/Holden won't want to share it even then. If you had a gorgeous model girlfriend, and you gonna let your mates shag her too?

[racer69]

Ford and Holden don't and shouldn't own Australian motorsport. Any manufacturer should have the right to compete in the championship formally known as the ATCC, and in the Bathurst 1000.

I'll ask again, why should a manufacturer not be allowed in just because the general public wrongly assume something?

[Aarrgh8]

My first thought is: because it's V8 Supercar racing. A tightly controlled formula for front-engined, RWD, V8 cars. Holden and Ford have such cars, and have spent a lot of money supporting this unique Australian form of racing.

My second thought is that the cars racing aren't representative of current production cars, so let a few other manufacturers join in. Then I have a problem with a manufacturer that advertises it's car's great FWD advantages, and it's V6 engine's more economical performance against the opposition's V8s, running a car contrary to everything they espouse.

My third thought is that who cares anyway. Well, I care. I welcome more makes into V8 Supercars, but I don't really want manufacturers who make mileage out of the advantages of FWD and V6 economy getting a leg up in the marketing mileage afforded by Supercar racing. They can go and start their own series, just like Supercar racing did.

That's just what we want - another category, NOT. There again, a series of racing featuring equally under-powered cars with terminal understeer would be a more realistic representation of what most of us drive than Supercars do.
Hang on. I've owned HSVs for 13 years now - and before that it was a few Ford V8s. There's still a lot of us dinosaurs around.

[Mattracer]

Originally posted by Aarrgh8
Yep, I wouldn't put it past Toyota to aim high and target the best team manager in the business.

Alan Heaphy and Fred Gibson are still around aren't they?

[Mattracer]

V8 rear drive cars are exactly what Toyota expolits as dinosaurs. All the multi valve heads, O2 advantage marketing stuff, the economy argument, then they want to come and play with the "dinosaur boys"? Doesn't make sense. Jumping on the bandwaggon and riding along. Sure, come and play, but the cars have to adhere the basic parameters, sedan, RWD, V8 in actual production. Sure, the Holden and Ford use parts bin specials for engines, but there is still some tangible link as there is a V8 powered road car with a sporting flavour and pedigree. There is no V8 Avalon, even though through the Lexus link there could be. There isn't one in the range at the dealerships.