Sprint Handicapping

[TIMELORD]

Borough 19MC will be trialling a new handicapping system at their North Weald Shakedown Sprint on March 1st. The idea is to group cars by their handicap rating, in order to see who their real peer group is, rather than have the traditional class format where performance can vary wildly within each class.

The handicap rating will be derived from information supplied by each competitor, this information being:
BHP at the flywheel (if only known at the wheels it can be converted)
Kerbside weight (inc 10 litres of fuel, but no driver)
Type of Tyres (i.e. List 1A, List 1B or Race (Slicks or wets))

What do people think of this idea? Could it catch on? It's apparently been used successfully by the handicapper, Steve Cox, in the TVRCC Speed Championship. Could it's dependancy on people's honesty potentially make it unworkable? I'd love to know your thoughts...

[duke_toaster]

From my non-technical opinion, the power thing would be open to "Yes Scrute, my Eurofighter engined Trabant only produces 50hp" abuse, and the weight could be without a weighbridge. Tyres should be easier to check though.

[Steve Wilkinson]

In my opinion all attempts at Handicapping within Speed Events generally leads to abuse. I have yet to see one that produces a fair result plus it completely baffles the spectators as they have little or no idea of what is going on.

The suggested format is open to all sorts of abuse:

1) BHP at the flywheel or rear wheels - how are you going to check that?
2) Kerbside weight - has North Weald got a calibrated weighbridge?
3) Type of tyres - you also need to look at the amount of wear, check tread depth, check tyre pressures for List 1A & List 1B, check tyre compounds for racing slicks and wets.

It all seems far too much trouble to be worth the considerable effort involved.

[CNHSS1]

Steve

the TVR boys have been using this system for 8 or so years now, and it works extremely well for them. this B19MC event is only a shakedown with no awards so their will be no super strict pwr/kg + tyre governing, more a way of grouping similar performance cars (rather than type of cars) in batches.

for the TVR championship, they specify the bhp (cant remember if its fly or ATW off hand) with the requirement of a dyno run readout etc, and a weighbridge docket. if neither are available a hevy-handed handicap is applied ie if the guesstimate is a car weighs 1050kg, it will be deemed as say 950kg, thus buggering the cars handicap competitiveness. this means that any and all can come out and play (a bigger issue than ever this season IMHO) without the need for dyno run/weighbridge expenditure until they wish to be class competitive.
im sure it wont suit all types of car/class or championship, but for cars such as the TVRs (and now Scimitars as we have adopted it for '09) where the production covers 30+ years, numerous models, weights sizes and power plants (xflows/B series thru to V8s) it has its apeal. the policing within a close knit club such as Tivs and Scims is pretty easy as most owners are more model-spec savvy than the scrutes anyway. Both the TVR Scimitar series are pretty close knit and friendly, so cheating isnt really an issue. tyres is a visual check, weights can be checked with a corner guage trackside should anyone deem it necessary.

in the Scimitar club our regs and rules and list of mods allowable in recent years got to be like 'war and peace' trying to balance all types of car and let them all be competitive. it became unworkable and deeply unpopular, with members falling away. i cant guarantee that the TVR handicapping system will be perfect, but it has the unanimous backing of the Scimitar boys. lets hope it brings more competitors out to play in these tough economic times.
just coz something hasnt worked in the past, doesnt mean it wont in the future. definitely a case of the half-full glass for us
Craig

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by CNHSS1

Steve

the TVR boys have been using this system for 8 or so years now, and it works extremely well for them. this B19MC event is only a shakedown with no awards so their will be no super strict pwr/kg + tyre governing, more a way of grouping similar performance cars (rather than type of cars) in batches.

for the TVR championship, they specify the bhp (cant remember if its fly or ATW off hand) with the requirement of a dyno run readout etc, and a weighbridge docket. if neither are available a hevy-handed handicap is applied ie if the guesstimate is a car weighs 1050kg, it will be deemed as say 950kg, thus buggering the cars handicap competitiveness. this means that any and all can come out and play (a bigger issue than ever this season IMHO) without the need for dyno run/weighbridge expenditure until they wish to be class competitive.
im sure it wont suit all types of car/class or championship, but for cars such as the TVRs (and now Scimitars as we have adopted it for '09) where the production covers 30+ years, numerous models, weights sizes and power plants (xflows/B series thru to V8s) it has its apeal. the policing within a close knit club such as Tivs and Scims is pretty easy as most owners are more model-spec savvy than the scrutes anyway. Both the TVR Scimitar series are pretty close knit and friendly, so cheating isnt really an issue. tyres is a visual check, weights can be checked with a corner guage trackside should anyone deem it necessary.

in the Scimitar club our regs and rules and list of mods allowable in recent years got to be like 'war and peace' trying to balance all types of car and let them all be competitive. it became unworkable and deeply unpopular, with members falling away. i cant guarantee that the TVR handicapping system will be perfect, but it has the unanimous backing of the Scimitar boys. lets hope it brings more competitors out to play in these tough economic times.
just coz something hasnt worked in the past, doesnt mean it wont in the future. definitely a case of the half-full glass for us
Craig

Fine for one-make series but if, as the originator of the thread is intending, it is to be open to all cars then you are just asking for trouble.

Certainly in some of the other 'one make' series there are mutterings about the handicap systems in operation.

[Suze]

I'd have no idea for my car...!

Anyway just read [on another forum] this isn't at NW but will be at RAF Honington?? Which is it please...?

[CNHSS1]

Suze
the regs ive got say RAF Honington (nr Bury St Edmunds-ish?)

anyone been to RAF Honington before? how smooth is the surface?


Steve
its not intended to work comparing a bike engined single seater with a Mini, but similar car types, ie sports/classic cars.

as previously mentioned, the B19MC Honington event is a 'shakedown' and therefore being run to that format for interest rather than a serious proposal to replace MSA classes.
should be a bit of fun i hope. im hoping to go (wife/family commitments allowing) so will report back

[Suze]

Thanks, the original post says NW hence being slightly confused! I'm going there for a motorsport event at the end of March so not sure what the surface is like, sorry - though the airfields I have competed on I've found tend to be reasonably abrasive.

[TIMELORD]

Originally Posted by Suze

Anyway just read [on another forum] this isn't at NW but will be at RAF Honington?? Which is it please...?

Oops! Got a bit confused, as last year's shakedown was at North Weald. It is, of course, at Honington.

[Westysprinter]

A good system would be the value of the car
the vehicle must be available for sale for that price after the event to stop it being artificially low
Multiply the value by the time set for the final result to stop it being artificially high

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Westysprinter

A good system would be the value of the car
the vehicle must be available for sale for that price after the event to stop it being artificially low
Multiply the value by the time set for the final result to stop it being artificially high

Everyone in the WSCC will put the same value on their cars so what is the point?

[El Capitano]

If you are going to run a handicap you will need an MSA Licensed handicapper present at the event. See BB B45 for details

[Westysprinter]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Everyone in the WSCC will put the same value on their cars so what is the point?

cool so i buy a scabby x flow enter 1 event and come home with a 2.2 duratec

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Westysprinter

cool so i buy a scabby x flow enter 1 event and come home with a 2.2 duratec

Not even in your dreams!