Germany GP 1950

[WANHER]

Can anybody help me with the results of it

[SL]

Have you tried www@forix.com

By the way are you compiling some sort of referance book or web site ? So many obscure questions ? Just curious.

Simon

[Vitesse]

German GP August 20 1950 (from Sheldon)
Formula 2 16 laps 226.72miles

1 Alberto Ascari (Ferrari 166F2/50) 16 laps 2h55m00.8 = 77.67 mph
2 Andre Simon (Simca-Gordini T15) 16 laps 2h57m21.7
3 Maurice Trintignant (Simca-Gordini T15) 16 laps 3h03m28.5
4 Toni Ulmen (Veritas Meteor) 15 laps
5 Ernst Seiler (Simca-Gordini T15) 15 laps
6 Lance Macklin (HWM-Alta) 15 laps
7 Karl Gommann (AFM 3-BMW) 14 laps
8 "Eymart" (Simca-Gordini T15) 14 laps
9 Georges Berger (Jicey-BMW) 13 laps
10 Francisco Godia (Cisitalia D46-Fiat) 11 laps

Fastest lap: Ascari 10min43.6sec = 79.35mph

Retirements
Peter Hirt (Veritas Meteor)
Paul Glauser (Veritas Meteor)
Aldo Gordini (Simca-Gordini T15)
Willi Heeks (AFM 2-BMW)
Rene Bonnet (DB-Citroen)
Bertil Lundberg (BMW 328)
"Robert" (Cisitalia D46-Fiat)
Alfred Dattner (Simca-Gordini T11)
Giovanni Bracco (Ferrari 166F2)
Herman Roosdorp (Ferrari 166MM)
Fritz Riess (AFM 3-BMW)
Claude Bernheim (Cisitalia D46-Fiat)
Karl Bossong (BMW "Eigenbau")
Willi Krakau (BMW "Eigenbau")
Roger Loyer (Simca-Gordini T11)
Antonio Branca (Simca-Gordini T11)
Herrmann Lang (Veritas Meteor)
Robert Manzon (Simca-Gordini T15) - valve
Paul Pitesch (Maserati A6GCS) - clutch (7 laps)
Dorino Serafini (Ferrari 166F2/50) - gearbox
Manfred von Brauchitsch (AFM 6-BMW) - engine
Karl Kling (Veritas Meteor III) - piston
Harry Schell (Cooper T12-JAP) - engine
Fergus Anderson (HWM-Alta) - differential

Disqualified
Hans Stuck (AFM 4-BMW) - push start (2 laps)

Did not start
Kaspar Aebli (Veritas Meteor)
"J.M.Marcy" (Veritas Meteor)
Juan Fangio (Maserati 4CLT/48) - cylinder block

NB: Luigi Villoresi is recorded as an alternative driver for Serafini.
There is also a long list of "did not arrives".

Can also provide grid and some practice times if required.

[TimD]

Beat me to it, Vitesse!

I was just dusting off the Sheldon when you posted.

I love these topics - keep 'em coming! Even if I don't know the answers, I can always file away what I learn in the archives.

[WANHER]

Many thanks
Maybe the grid
Yes why not anymore like trivia as in the past ?

[Vitesse]

Grid: 3-3-3, staggered, pole on right

Ascari 10m39.5
Simon 10m50.0
Serafini 10m57.0
Trintignant 11m07.3
Kling 11m15.0
Branca 11m15.8
Lang 11m21.1
Manzon
Ulmen
Bracco
Stuck
Anderson
Seiler
Loyer
Glauser
Heeks
Gordini
"Eymart"
Hirt
Bonnet
[Aebli]
Gommann
von Brauchitsch
Schell
Roosdorp
Macklin
Berger
Dattner
"Robert"
Godia
Lundberg
Riess
Bernheim
Pietsch
["Marcy"]
Krakau
Bossong

[WANHER]

Many thanks Vitesse another gap filled

[WANHER]

From a picture on the start G Bracco drove a 166 MM
there were 3 'streamlined' cars at the start K Kling,
Roosdorp and G Bracco.

[Vitesse]

Wanher: not sure of your source for a picture. I have a picture of the start in Cyril Posthumus' book and I think you may be right there, but it's a very small picture.

[WANHER]

Try to post picture coming from Huet book Gordini
showing the start if that d**** think works

[fines]

Vitesse's info seems to come from the Sheldon book and is wrong in some parts. For example, the grid was 4-3-4 with Paul Pietsch starting from the front row in a Veritas Meteor, not a Maserati.

[Vitesse]

Michael: Stefan's site also shows Pietsch in a Maserati. The picture I mentioned above was taken a couple of seconds after the start, so the grid is unclear, but it appears that Branca got a flyer from 6th and passed the whole of the front row. There is a Veritas near the front, but that must be Kling - what is your source re the grid?

[fines]

A report with picture in the German magazine "Das Auto".

[Vitesse]

Sheldon has obviously based his work on Posthumus, who shows the same grid as 3-3-3. This was the standard grid pre-war at the Ring, and 4-3-4 was certainly standard from 1951 in the German GP. Sheldon has no grid for the 1949 Eifelrennen, and shows six-abreast for the 1950 Eifelrennen (!)

I'll freely admit I get confused by Veritas type designations - some sources call the open-wheelers Meteors, others say RS. Sheldon seems to hedge his bets and calls them all Meteors! As I understand it, there was the Komet (sports), RS (open-wheel F2) and Meteor (streamlined F2).

The picture I have shows one streamliner near the front: all the other leading cars are open-wheelers. Trying to relate it to Posthumus' grid, this would put Kling in the streamliner and Ulmen and Lang in open-wheelers ...

However, Posthumus shows Pietsch in a Veritas, but not on the front row.

[fines]

The grid at the Eifelrennen was indeed six cars wide (I have a picture), especially intriguing since only seven started at all!

A brief on the Veritases (Veritae? Must remember to start a thread on plurals of car makes!): The original sports car was the RS, often used in F2 races as well. Standard was the original 328 engine, but already in 1948 Schorsch Meier ran the "works" car with the modified Veritas engine. It is nigh impossible to say with authority which car ran which engine later on. Some where rebuilt with special bodies, like the two cars Toni Ulmen owned, one of which was a single-seater but not a Meteor. The Komet was another sports car that was, to my knowledge, never raced.

The Meteor was the single-seater design that appeared late in 1949. It had the Veritas engine that was only loosely based on the BMW unit. There were only about 8-10 cars built in all, and at least two were sold to Switzerland very early in 1950. There was one car with a streamlined body, which Karl Kling drove for a while, then later Hans Klenk. It's possible that this was the car that was cannibalized to build the Klenk-Veritas later.

There is a lot of confusion surrounding Veritas: Firstly, many cars were assembled over the border in France to avoid a ban on car imports from Germany. These were raced in France and elsewhere under the name of METEOR, but were not single-seaters. One was rebuilt into a single-seater by American Alexander Orley, and although that car was variously called a Veritas and a METEOR (both quite rigthly), it was not a Veritas Meteor! Confused?

[Vitesse]

Michael: there is a picture in the Georgano Encyclopaedia of what is alleged to be the Komet, at the Karussel. It carries race number 42, but no driver name is given. It looks like a contemporary picture, as the driver is wearing a linen helmet. The car is an offset single-seater with streamlined bodywork.

[fines]

I'm not sure if I've ever seen a picture of the Komet, the Skorpion or the Saturn. I was always only interested in racing cars!

[Vitesse]

Michael: I've just cross-checked Posthumus and Sheldon.

Their grid and entry info is identical, apart from two points:

1 Posthumus has Pietsch in a Veritas, Sheldon has him in a Maserati.

2 Posthumus has no practice time recorded for Lang.

Posthumus says Kling drove an "envelope-bodied" Veritas, Lang a "single-seater" Veritas and Pietsch a "single o.h.c." Veritas. Pietsch apparently retired from fourth on lap 7, according to both accounts - Sheldon following Posthumus again methinks.

So, the question is, why would Sheldon change just one car from Posthumus' list? He must have had good reason ...

[fines]

I have also some good reasons to believe I'm correct, one is the picture from "Das Auto" showing the first half of the grid seconds before the start. I have sent this info along with more corrections to Paul Sheldon several years ago, and he included part of it in his addenda. However, since most of the data concerning races in Germany during that period was either wrong or incomplete, he then had the idea of doing a book on the subject, with the help of several people, including me, but that project never really got off the ground. I think he is aware of the fact that most of the content of his books is not perfect, but it's better than having no info at all! His books have started many people on their way, including me, and one day, I'm sure, he'll be thinking of re-publishing it all with all the corrections he's received so far. But for the moment he's preoccupied with other projects, one being the final two books in the 'Black Book' series, which should be ready by the end of the year.