Audi LMP1 Discussion

[zanfo zanfagni]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

On the Mulsanne's Corner Facebook page Steffen Spies wrote the following:
This confirms that Peugeot Sport had a better engine department than Audi Sport. Lets hope that the former Peugeot guys did not recommend to use titanium con rods

LOL. I Agree with you, even if R15 V10 and R18 V6 VGT claim a more sophisticated architecture than peugeot V12 and V8 motors that have a more conventional design, audi motors have been always less powerfull. Accoring to some rumors 908HDi had 800hp in 2008, down to 700hp in 2009 and again close to 800hp in 2010 against 590-650hp of R15 engine. According to some other le mans 2011 rumors, the v8 twin turbo peugeot had a power of 650hp, being the 908 the only car able to hit over 340km/h like the more powerfull 908HDi of previous seasons.

[jsTrecu]

But the consumption has inceased by 21%, right ?
How is that a "just a little more" ?

[Mal]

Originally Posted by zanfo zanfagni

LOL. I Agree with you, even if R15 V10 and R18 V6 VGT claim a more sophisticated architecture than peugeot V12 and V8 motors that have a more conventional design, audi motors have been always less powerfull. Accoring to some rumors 908HDi had 800hp in 2008, down to 700hp in 2009 and again close to 800hp in 2010 against 590-650hp of R15 engine. According to some other le mans 2011 rumors, the v8 twin turbo peugeot had a power of 650hp, being the 908 the only car able to hit over 340km/h like the more powerfull 908HDi of previous seasons.

That doesnt mean to say that there isnt some aspect of the pug engine that could help Audi and apparently has.

[gregtummer]

I also remember reading that Audi could never figure out how Peugeot could get so much front grip with the amount of horsepower and torque they had.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I also remember reading that Audi could never figure out how Peugeot could get so much front grip with the amount of horsepower and torque they had.

I have a photo of the 908 going through the Turn 10 chicane at Road Atlanta with the left rear on the curbs and the front flat on the track. The 908 had so much flexibility in this turn that it looked like it was hiking its rear leg to take a pee like a dog while addressing the inconvenience of a curb while at high speeds.

I know that prototypes are supposed to be stiff but this car could bend in the middle with the front suspension doing one thing while the back suspension was in a totally different situation.

The 908 had flexibility in its chassis and suspension that I haven't seen in too many protos. Most teams seem to want more stiffness but it seems the 908 had been doing yoga and could twist when and where it was needed.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

I have a photo of the 908 going through the Turn 10 chicane at Road Atlanta with the left rear on the curbs and the front flat on the track. The 908 had so much flexibility in this turn that it looked like it was hiking its rear leg to take a pee like a dog while addressing the inconvenience of a curb while at high speeds.

I know that prototypes are supposed to be stiff but this car could bend in the middle with the front suspension doing one thing while the back suspension was in a totally different situation.

The 908 had flexibility in its chassis and suspension that I haven't seen in too many protos. Most teams seem to want more stiffness but it seems the 908 had been doing yoga and could twist when and where it was needed.

I'd like to see that picture sometime if you get time to upload it.

[CyberMotor]

Here is the photo I was talking about. You can see the left rear is on the curb and the rear of the car is leaning towards the right and putting pressure on the right rear but the front of the car appears to be level and stable. Was this a secret of the 908? Everyone talks about the big P1 cars being powerful and the P2 being nimble, but what if you are both powerful and nimble?

I'm not sure this photo adequately conveys what I was seeing that day or not. I was seeing the 908 come through this corner and hitting the corners and the curves while remaining stable and fast.

[NelisB]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

Here is the photo I was talking about. You can see the left rear is on the curb and the rear of the car is leaning towards the right and putting pressure on the right rear but the front of the car appears to be level and stable. Was this a secret of the 908? Everyone talks about the big P1 cars being powerful and the P2 being nimble, but what if you are both powerful and nimble?

I'm not sure this photo adequately conveys what I was seeing that day or not. I was seeing the 908 come through this corner and hitting the corners and the curves while remaining stable and fast.

Could it be that Peugeot were running interlinked suspension?
Like F1 cars have been running for sometime now?

Like this: http://scarbsf1.com/blog1/2011/10/17...ar-suspension/

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by NelisB

Could it be that Peugeot were running interlinked suspension?
Like F1 cars have been running for sometime now?

Like this: http://scarbsf1.com/blog1/2011/10/17...ar-suspension/

Nelis, I'm not qualified nor informed enough to answer your question. But, after looking at your link, I will say that it is possible.

In the game of grip, the object is to keep the wheels on the ground as much of the time as possible in many differing situations. To me, IMHO, it looked liked Peugeot figured out how to do that and that is a possible reason why they got better grip out of the fronts.

Not only was it 4-wheel independent suspension, it was front-rear independent suspension.

[Mechanic Z]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

The Peugoet was never my favorite P1 car, but that is a really awesome photo.

[TF110]

I preferred it to the Audi's. Main reason was it being a coupe and the nose cone design.

[silente]

To be totally honest i don't see anything particular in that picture.

That Curb was not that high and you cannot see at all front left wheel. For what we know, it could also be on the same curb, which is not over even at the front axle of the car.

It simply seems to me that these cars are using quite low roll stiffeness at the rear (at least compared to the front), probably also lower heave stiffness than at the front.

I think this is pretty necessary, when using such big front tyres, otherwise you will always have an unstable car.

But honestly that picture doesn't tell anything to me about fancy suspension design solutions.

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by silente

To be totally honest i don't see anything particular in that picture.

That Curb was not that high and you cannot see at all front left wheel. For what we know, it could also be on the same curb, which is not over even at the front axle of the car.

It simply seems to me that these cars are using quite low roll stiffeness at the rear (at least compared to the front), probably also lower heave stiffness than at the front.

I think this is pretty necessary, when using such big front tyres, otherwise you will always have an unstable car.

But honestly that picture doesn't tell anything to me about fancy suspension design solutions.

I know what CyberMotor is talking about. I looked at some of the footage of the 2008 Petit Le Mans and going through the turn 10a-10b complex, the Peugeot 908 does lift up and tilt in the back, just exactly like he describes, as a dog lifting it's hind leg to pee.

But what is interesting is that at the 2008 24 Hours of Le Mans, when the rain hit, the Peugeots were way too stiff and the Audi's were gaining 10-12 seconds a lap on them at times.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

I know what CyberMotor is talking about. I looked at some of the footage of the 2008 Petit Le Mans and going through the turn 10a-10b complex, the Peugeot 908 does lift up and tilt in the back, just exactly like he describes, as a dog lifting it's hind leg to pee.

But what is interesting is that at the 2008 24 Hours of Le Mans, when the rain hit, the Peugeots were way too stiff and the Audi's were gaining 10-12 seconds a lap on them at times.

Thanks. I was afraid that a single photo would not illustrate what I was seeing. I've seen many cars hit curbs while cornering but the way that the Peugeot was doing it was different. In many photos, you will see cars with two wheels off the ground because the chassis is so stiff. With the 908, the front could hit a curb and the front would lean while the rear was flat and then the rear would hit and twist while the front was flat. Wasn't any of the bouncing into the air that I'm accustomed to seeing when some cars hit the curbs at high speeds.

The original comment was that Audi could never figure out how Peugeot got so much front grip? I offered an observation and a possible reason. It may or may not be that but I do think it plausible.

Gregtummer also states that then in the rain, they seemed to go to being too stiff. Almost sounds like it could be an electronically adjustable suspension setting?

[gregtummer]

We need MulsanneMike!

[MitchZ06]

The chassis doesn't twist like you've tried to describe, it's all in the suspension design.

[TRuss]

That has nothing to do with the chassis not being stiff. If the chassis wasn't stiff then the suspension couldn't achieve the travel that you describe. Maybe they we're just capable of running a softer suspension setup that weekend. Of course they would all like to run softer suspension setups but heavy aero dependency usually requires compromises.

[gregtummer]

If Audi could never figure out how Peugeot got so much front grip, then I doubt we will be able to.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

If Audi could never figure out how Peugeot got so much front grip, then I doubt we will be able to.

So true but it's sure fun trying!

And, it's much more fun than complaining about DP's, ALMS, USRC, closed web forums, etc.!

[CTD]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

If Audi could never figure out how Peugeot got so much front grip, then I doubt we will be able to.

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

So true but it's sure fun trying!

And, it's much more fun than complaining about DP's, ALMS, USRC, closed web forums, etc.!

But if we are trying, we should do it in the 908 thread and not in the Audi thread

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by CTD

But if we are trying, we should do it in the 908 thread and not in the Audi thread

Sorry, I should of mentioned that it is gluten-free and that would've made it OK.

[Tim the Grey]

And there you have it? Peugeot's Crepe handled better than the Audi Schwarzwalder Kirschtorter...

Simple, really. It's all the whipped cream and cherries, I reckon.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Audi are "not amused" by the latest Adjustments of Performance (AoP) decided by the Endurance Committee according to www.motorsport-total.com.

I guess "not amused" is an understatement

[MyNameIsNigel]

Interestingly, Dr. Ullrich claims in this article that the extra 3L of fuel offered to Toyota implies that the Audi's would have to do (only ?) 2 to 3 extra pit stops compared to Toyota and that the Audi's would have to run (at least) half a second quicker per lap than the Toyota's to compensate for these extra pit stops.

This suggests that Audi are "confident" that they can be within one lap at most of the stints that Toyota will be able to do. 11-lap stints for Audi and possibly 12-lap stints for Toyota then ?

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Interestingly, Dr. Ullrich claims in this article that the extra 3L of fuel offered to Toyota implies that the Audi's would have to do (only ?) 2 to 3 extra pit stops compared to Toyota and that the Audi's would have to run (at least) half a second quicker per lap than the Toyota's to compensate for these extra pit stops.

This suggests that Audi are "confident" that they can be within one lap at most of the stints that Toyota will be able to do. 11-lap stints for Audi and possibly 12-lap stints for Toyota then ?

Maybe 10-lap stints if Audi runs at the 2008-2010 Peugeot 908 pace.