Force India, financial & ownership legal problems

[Teretonga]

Mallya says Force India is fine and ready to go for 2015....
No inhibiting problems at all....

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns29378.html

So is this all a case of someone using influence to create an artificial snowstorm....

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Mallya says Force India is fine and ready to go for 2015....
No inhibiting problems at all....

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns29378.html

So is this all a case of someone using influence to create an artificial snowstorm....

Please make up your mind, and decide which Sylt you choose to believe is not acting on behalf of Ecclestone.

First, we have Sylt reporting that there may be financial problems at Force India and he bases this view on the latest audited accounts which have just been released. You then insinuate that Sylt is "acting" on Ecclestone's behalf to undermine Force India.

Then today, you seem to be quite happy to relay Sylt's recent report on the wonderful state that Red Bull finds itself in, according to the latest audited accounts which have just been released.

How do you differentiate between the two reports? Is it because one is all doom and gloom, therefore it must be part of a conspiracy to damage one team's position, whilst the other is a garden of roses so it must be an accurate snapshot?

I assume that you have read the auditor's qualifying remarks which were included in the Force India accounts, and therefore I further assume that you may also "believe" that they are also part of the conspiracy.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Please make up your mind, and decide which Sylt you choose to believe is not acting on behalf of Ecclestone.

First, we have Sylt reporting that there may be financial problems at Force India and he bases this view on the latest audited accounts which have just been released. You then insinuate that Sylt is "acting" on Ecclestone's behalf to undermine Force India.

Then today, you seem to be quite happy to relay Sylt's recent report on the wonderful state that Red Bull finds itself in, according to the latest audited accounts which have just been released.

How do you differentiate between the two reports? Is it because one is all doom and gloom, therefore it must be part of a conspiracy to damage one team's position, whilst the other is a garden of roses so it must be an accurate snapshot?

I assume that you have read the auditor's qualifying remarks which were included in the Force India accounts, and therefore I further assume that you may also "believe" that they are also part of the conspiracy.

I am not giving you answers Mike, just framing the questions. You can make up your own mind what you believe....

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Please make up your mind, and decide which Sylt you choose to believe is not acting on behalf of Ecclestone.

First, we have Sylt reporting that there may be financial problems at Force India and he bases this view on the latest audited accounts which have just been released. You then insinuate that Sylt is "acting" on Ecclestone's behalf to undermine Force India.

Then today, you seem to be quite happy to relay Sylt's recent report on the wonderful state that Red Bull finds itself in, according to the latest audited accounts which have just been released.

How do you differentiate between the two reports? Is it because one is all doom and gloom, therefore it must be part of a conspiracy to damage one team's position, whilst the other is a garden of roses so it must be an accurate snapshot?

I assume that you have read the auditor's qualifying remarks which were included in the Force India accounts, and therefore I further assume that you may also "believe" that they are also part of the conspiracy.

Just to clear up an inaccuracy here.
I have never said Christian Sylt was acting on behalf of Bernie Ecclestone to undermine Force India.
I said that Pitpass published an article about Force India's finances based on information they said was from Mr Sylt.
I said it was a tactic of Bernie's to release information or bring to peoples notice information that diverted their thinking from the immediate events at hand. It's not illegal. Politicians do that all the time

In effect all I have actually done is to suggest that the political goings on in F1 may be shrouding some other issues in the smoke and mirrors game. It is often not what it appears to be.

I have no vested interest in any outcomes here. I am completely outside F1 and removed from any overt influence nor have anything to gain in a personal or financial sense,. I am just an observer. If other people are agitated by my comments then they may have something to gain or lose, or something they would like to see hidden.
But I don't.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Mallya says Force India is fine and ready to go for 2015....
No inhibiting problems at all....

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns29378.html

So is this all a case of someone using influence to create an artificial snowstorm....

The blokes and blokettes at Caterham & Marussia told everyone they would be in Austin too... until they werent

[wolfhound]

According to a Finnish jounalist the reason for Force India's absence from Jerez is because money from Sergey Sirotkin's backers failed to arrive. HGe was to be 3rd driver and get a number of Friday practice sessions along with a significant amount of testing.
I seem to remember Sauber having trouble getting money from this source as well.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns29859.html

If true it does not bode well for the rest of the season. Are Force India going to where Sauber were last year?

[bella]

to be fair, i don't think getting money out of russia is a particularly easy thing to do at the moment, and if i was sirotkin snr i'd be cautious too. fwiw i've not heard of him being tight fisted in the junior stuff.

[old man]

Originally Posted by bella

to be fair, i don't think getting money out of russia is a particularly easy thing to do at the moment, and if i was sirotkin snr i'd be cautious too. fwiw i've not heard of him being tight fisted in the junior stuff.

The Russian Central Bank cut the interest rate back 2% today to 15% and the Ruble fell further against the Dollar so unless Sirotkins backers work in Dollars it is difficult for them.

The good news for Russia is that oil went up by 8% today but is still only $53

[nobster]

Sirotkin doesn't deserve a seat in F1, with the new rules for superlicences he most probably never finds his way in.

[Moneyseeker]

More on this...

Ralf Bach, a correspondent for Sport Bild and TZ Munchen who now writes on his own blog f1-insider.com, said he has learned that Force India's Jerez absence is "because it has no monocoque" for the new VJM08 car.
He said Force India has not been delivered the 2015 monocoque by carbon supplier EOM "because bills have not been paid".
Bach claims Force India's overall debts are in the order of 50 million euros, including engine and tyre suppliers Mercedes and Pirelli.
"Making the season opener in Melbourne is now virtually impossible," Bach quoted a team source as saying.


http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fo...-opener-report

[Nikki Katz]

That'll be a major upset to F1 if it's true. A team of their size missing just one race would be major, the whole season would be a disaster. Though given the series' issues at the moment it's certainly not implausible and possibly likely.

[bella]

in a way that callously disregards the lives of the staff and suppliers i would like to see that happen, just to remind the bosses that there's only 3 or 4 teams who are entirely financially secure and even that depends on one sole source of income per team. but in the interests of the staff and suppliers, i hope everything is settled and they're able to compete as expected. nobody wants to see another british based team in trouble, and people struggling to pay their bills. it's not good for anyone.

not sure why missing the tests would mean it'd be virtually impossible to compete in the season opener though, unless there's far more being held up than simply the tub.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by bella

in a way that callously disregards the lives of the staff and suppliers i would like to see that happen, just to remind the bosses that there's only 3 or 4 teams who are entirely financially secure and even that depends on one sole source of income per team. but in the interests of the staff and suppliers, i hope everything is settled and they're able to compete as expected. nobody wants to see another british based team in trouble, and people struggling to pay their bills. it's not good for anyone.

not sure why missing the tests would mean it'd be virtually impossible to compete in the season opener though, unless there's far more being held up than simply the tub.

If the tub is outsourced then it is quite likely a lot of other carbon fibre components could be made at the same company. It will also delay crash testing as well among other issues.

[bella]

mm, doom monger all you like but mongering is usually on flaky ground. what you, or the source doesn't know is the timescales for payment from sponsors and backers. might have had a big chunk due on the first of the month, and the team knew that for a while there was going to be a gap in funding. they'll clear the majority of their debts, free up the supply chain and carry on again.

"sources" are rarely in posession of all the facts - for example if someone talked to a source here they'd get a very different story from the actual truth. not saying that the "source" (i bet it's someone in the machine shop or drawing office - they're hotbeds of gossip in any company) isn't probably right in predicting an imminent demise, but it's probably a bit not true.

also, iirc tubs take ages to do in house if they can be done at all to a high enough standard, they're big bits of kit compared to the rest of the car. better to outsource that and keep in-house capabilities for the rest of the car and the short lead time stuff.

[wolfhound]

More on the FI delays in Autosport where it is said the chassis is not the main factor but other components. FI say the new car will not be ready for the first Barcelona test. They also hint that money might be a problem by saying this is the most expensive time of year for teams.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/117583

[GTRMagic]

Arent the primary sponsors at Force India largely companies related to the principals?

So conceptually, there probably should not be a 'cash gap' in play.

That debts to both Mercedes Benz & Pirelli are called out as forming a large piece of the reported €50m owings also suggests a larger issue

[Flavio Galtieri]

I think the FOM prize money isn't paid until March. That's 65 mil or so in their case. That would help cash flow somewhat.

I may be wrong, but I really don't see this as a Caterham/Marussia situation.

Having said that, I think their absence from the grid in Melbourne would hurt the sport greatly. On top of falling audiences from the idiotic short-sighted pay TV deals a grid of just 16 cars might just be the final straw for many fans.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

I think the FOM prize money isn't paid until March. That's 65 mil or so in their case. That would help cash flow somewhat.

I may be wrong, but I really don't see this as a Caterham/Marussia situation.

Having said that, I think their absence from the grid in Melbourne would hurt the sport greatly. On top of falling audiences from the idiotic short-sighted pay TV deals a grid of just 16 cars might just be the final straw for many fans.

If the FOM payment is 65m (presuming Euros?) and the stuck debt is 50m Euros.. doesnt leave a lot to pay wages, build new cars, pay for travel/accom to the flyaways...

It is surprising there isnt a press release leaked somewhere saying such speculation is all Joe Saward's fault

[bella]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

I think the FOM prize money isn't paid until March. That's 65 mil or so in their case. That would help cash flow somewhat.

i thought it was paid in installments throughout the year?

i honestly believe this is just a cashflow issue, especially given what was said in that autosport piece. if your boss doesn't have his own pot of instant cash to use as an overdraft (or doesn't want to run the risk) then you can only sit there and let the accounts tick over onto hold until the cash comes in.

don't forget that when you have inhouse manufacturing you have creditors supplying you with the materials. so they may have ran out of some materials and be unable to finish some of the latest releases from the design department that would complete the car. there's wiring, sensors, all sorts of components. it doesn't just neatly fit into third party and in-house. i mean, i work for an r&d company who also have a weird cashflow, and often you have to go into tactical accounting mode - looking carefully at your build processes and see who is mission critical to keep the current project going and who can wait a few weeks until the next big payment comes in.

this is all mere speculation of course. they could be up to their necks in it as far as i know, but...

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

It is surprising there isnt a press release leaked somewhere saying such speculation is all Joe Saward's fault

Ha Ha Ha! Saward was banging on about FI's downfall for his own reasons for so long that eventually he probably thought he'd be able to say he got it right.....

He has been strangely silent on this so far, I can only guess he got his fingers burnt and his credibility damaged quite severely by his association with Fernandez who was his pin up team owner......

[GTRMagic]

'We have no debt' - Force India



Me thinks they doth protest too much... Maybe.

[ger80]

He explained that the delay is simply due to EPM moving factory over the winter, during which crucial machinery was damaged.

Surprised a F1 supplier moves factory in the busiest time of F1 manufacturing?

[Casper]

What are the odds for FI getting to the end of the season, are the bookies on to this yet, I might like a punt.

[bella]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

'We have no debt' - Force India



Me thinks they doth protest too much... Maybe.

the fuel tank one... the company changed their terms and then they paid. why do companies change their terms? either a short term deal has ended (usually attached to a higher level of business) or they've been slack at paying within their old terms and are now on proforma payment

amazing that nobody else was suffering the same issues with the supplier whose machines were damaged though.

[steve nielsen]

Pascal Wehrlein to test in the first Barcelona test for Force India(in the old car)