[DTM] 2014 DTM speculation, rumours and news

[DS"]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

That's the best thing about the DTM for me - the cars are truly spectacular to watch, see and even feel as they go past. You can get away with less exciting racing if the cars are incredible on their own (think F1 for the ultimate example). If you want less extreme cars then there's BTCC to watch for that.

Even though the DTM races are hardly exciting on TV. Not to mention that since TV reaches far more people, it's very important to deliver an exciting product for TV. DRS or soft tires hardly make for a better product, but less-aero reliant cars would do that for once.

The problem here is that drivers reaching the level of DTM, F3, Renault 3.5, GP2 etc etc have all been through media training - and that seems to involve removing their personality to some extent. Drivers are continually coached in saying and doing the 'correct' thing. There are some exceptions and occasionally the mask will slip and a driver will actually say what they're thinking - but then the teams PR people step in and try to smooth things over. The obvious examples here are Kimi who'd rather not talk to journalists and doesn't try to hide the fact or Maldonado who appears to be a bit of a head case.

That media training may be nice to avoid a driver saying something "offensive" (To whom anyway? Who is actually offended, if a driver says something "hot"?), but it kills pretty much a driver's personality. But drivers with personality are pretty important, if you want to draw casual fans. This is why Kimi Raikkonen, who's not afraid to give anyone a piece of his mind, will always be more beloved than Sebastian Vettel, who's always toeing to the Red Bull line.

A quote by Timo Scheider comes to mind, where he said that the manufacturers actually do not want a driver to become too popular on their own. So at the end of the day, the manufacturers want total control over this sport and even over who becomes popular and who wins a title. That's pretty sad in my opinion and makes a series like DTM almost look like WWE.

[JoestForEver]

But for some reason we don't know, Tom Kristensen stayed in DTM for quite a while considering the fact that there is always a seat for him in the LMP.
Mind you. The current ITV4 exclusive deal of BTCC is actually killing it simply because ITV is no where near a mainstream TV provider (i.e. Sky, BT sport, BBC) and the current spectator number is second to British superbikes and slightly more than British GT, which doesn't even have a TV deal. I can't get ITV4 in any pub or hotel in England.
When it comes to this, the situation of DTM isn't that bad. And do remember that the main market of DTM is Germany+eastern europe+anywhere the BBA oligarch want to expand their market. You even have Andy Priaulx's car at BTCC Brands Hatch GP and other rounds this year. Any other touring car series, well apart from WTCC, won't have such international effect.
------------------
To me, aero isn't a problem, 2007 and before we saw great races and fantastic drama. I do extremely hate the current budget friendly 2011-spec cars. The broadcast is so boring that every race the presenters just keep talking about the change of rear wing under DRS and report tire changes, pitstops. Who the hell cares about that? Just please invite R&D back, even if you have to borrow ERS-K and ERS-H from F1. As long as it produces drama and overtake, just do it.

[DS"]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

But for some reason we don't know, Tom Kristensen stayed in DTM for quite a while considering the fact that there is always a seat for him in the LMP.

I guess TK wanted to spend as much time as possible in Europe, because he could have easily done ALMS. Not to mention that he still does WEC/Le Mans, even after quitting DTM.

Mind you. The current ITV4 exclusive deal of BTCC is actually killing it simply because ITV is no where near a mainstream TV provider (i.e. Sky, BT sport, BBC) and the current spectator number is second to British superbikes and slightly more than British GT, which doesn't even have a TV deal. I can't get ITV4 in any pub or hotel in England.

At least you can receive the BTCC on free TV. If I recall correctly, DTM is on pay TV in most countries, including the UK.

When it comes to this, the situation of DTM isn't that bad. And do remember that the main market of DTM is Germany+eastern europe+anywhere the BBA oligarch want to expand their market. You even have Andy Priaulx's car at BTCC Brands Hatch GP and other rounds this year. Any other touring car series, well apart from WTCC, won't have such international effect.

Then tell me, if the DTM had such a positive effect, why did they withdraw from longtime markets such as the UK or the Netherlands?

To me, aero isn't a problem, 2007 and before we saw great races and fantastic drama. I do extremely hate the current budget friendly 2011-spec cars. The broadcast is so boring that every race the presenters just keep talking about the change of rear wing under DRS and report tire changes, pitstops. Who the hell cares about that? Just please invite R&D back, even if you have to borrow ERS-K and ERS-H from F1. As long as it produces drama and overtake, just do it.

I'd be in favour of more development, but I guess that the ITC trauma is still haunting the ITR. Us racing fans are reminded on almost every occasion that cost-cutting is important and so on.
But for the aero: I really want to see less reliance on aero, so drivers from touring cars or GT racing have a better chance than formula drivers, who are naturally used to racing cars with lots of downforce.

[Andrew Abbott]

Originally Posted by DS"

At least you can receive the BTCC on free TV. If I recall correctly, DTM is on pay TV in most countries, including the UK.

As of last season, every DTM race is available live and in full to an international audience on the DTMint Youtube channel. Admittedly only the hardcore fans are likely to watch, but it's a little something.

Originally Posted by DS"

Then tell me, if the DTM had such a positive effect, why did they withdraw from longtime markets such as the UK or the Netherlands?

To be honest, German car manufacturers have 'cracked' the UK market very well. More German cars are exported to the UK than any other country. So there's less of a need to market your brand in such an established market. As much as I dislike the lack of a race here, from a business point of view it makes sense.

[MagVanisher]

Say, what will happen to the DTM-Super GT merger when the former is in decline?

[JoestForEver]

I wouldn't call a series expanding extremely quick to the globe 'in decline'

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

I wouldn't call a series expanding extremely quick to the globe 'in decline'

Agreed. The DTM is in a stronger position now that it was a couple of years ago - it's got 3 manufacturers now rather than 2 and they all seem happy with the way it's going.

[AxelF]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Agreed. The DTM is in a stronger position now that it was a couple of years ago - it's got 3 manufacturers now rather than 2 and they all seem happy with the way it's going.

Its good public relations then. All the press officers try to give good news out...

It's obvious, when german TV states, that there are 100.000 spectators there, and you see on TV screen, that many places are empty (sometimes the whole Sachs-Kurve is free).

Its like saying, that you quit working because of too many customers :-)

[DS"]

It's obvious, when german TV states, that there are 100.000 spectators there, and you see on TV screen, that many places are empty (sometimes the whole Sachs-Kurve is free).

DTM always claims "weekend attendance" numbers, which is just sunday's attendance multiplied by 2. Even when hardly anyone is there on saturday, there still aren't 100.000 people on sunday. If we take Hockenheim for example, I doubt that there even 50.000 people there. 40.000 perhaps, but not more.

40.000 is by the way still a good crowd number, considering that F1 only draws 52.000 on sunday. The German Bundesliga's average crowd numbers are also in that region so 40.000 wouldn't be bad. I guess the ITR is just making up numbers out of false pride, so they have a "proof" for their international popularity. But all it does is to make the ITR losing credibility more and more.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Good points all round, I'd say.

One thing tho, you talked about that DTM is where careers comes and stalls, Ekström for one I belive never had anywhere else he wanted to go, he went to DTM cause thats where he wanted to race. And thats where he has stayed for what, 13 years now? And taken 2 championships. If he wanted to go somewhere else, I'm sure that would never have been a problem.

[DS"]

@PorscheFanNo1: This may be true on one hand. But on the other hand, there have continuous rumours since 2009 that Ekström wants to do something else: NASCAR, Rally, Rallycross and V8 Supercars have all been named as potential destinations for him.

But Ekström should really be the model for any foreign driver that comes to the DTM: He speaks German fluently and I think that he's amongst the most well-known DTM drivers in Germany, although that doesn't say much nowadays. But I know that he did some PR work for DTM in the last decade, so he's really not using DTM as a way to pick up easy money. Unlike certain other people, who are content with being a testdriver in F1...

[MagVanisher]

Well, I understand that ITR is losing creditability, but what I'm worried are the promises they made, especially with the GTA.

While Super GT is currently using a deviation of their ruleset, all I want is a clear message from DTM on whether they're committed to the unified ruleset or not.

[bella]

Originally Posted by DS"

DTM always claims "weekend attendance" numbers, which is just sunday's attendance multiplied by 2. Even when hardly anyone is there on saturday, there still aren't 100.000 people on sunday. If we take Hockenheim for example, I doubt that there even 50.000 people there. 40.000 perhaps, but not more.

40.000 is by the way still a good crowd number, considering that F1 only draws 52.000 on sunday. The German Bundesliga's average crowd numbers are also in that region so 40.000 wouldn't be bad. I guess the ITR is just making up numbers out of false pride, so they have a "proof" for their international popularity. But all it does is to make the ITR losing credibility more and more.

for what it's worth, world series by renault does the same thing albeit with free entry instead of paid for tickets. some of their attendance figures last year were out by easily 50%, and it was hilariously visible on television. i agree completely with you that it makes the organisers lose credibility. but when series hang their hat on their high attendance and make a big song and dance about attendance they either have to drop it completely or slightly enhance figures to show that the decline they're experiencing isn't severe.

an average sunday crowd realistically for wsr in the past 2 years is around the 30-40,000 level, weather dependant, so 40,000 is a very decent paid ticket attendance figure. especially now fuel is expensive and people have less disposable income, etc etc.

[DS"]

an average sunday crowd realistically for wsr in the past 2 years is around the 30-40,000 level, weather dependant, so 40,000 is a very decent paid ticket attendance figure. especially now fuel is expensive and people have less disposable income, etc etc.

As I said, 30-40.000 is close to the average season attendance in the Bundesliga. But on-track attendance has been sinking and there are some factors that accelerated that decline. You rightfully pointed out higher fuel expenses or less income. But I also think that people are more and more saturated by the DTM. It's basically the same DTM as it has been in 2006, only that BMW is now involved. Continuity isn't a bad thing, but is it really good when you still have the same crappy race format since 2003? Is it really good when your race still goes for barely over a hour?

But maybe, some things will change about that. Hans-Werner Aufrecht has said that they want to "adjust" DTM to the changed viewer's habit. But it's only "maybe" and there is real danger that DTM will make things actually worse.

[bella]

again they have exactly the same problem at the wsr events. it's a really good weekend, free motorsport at a pretty high level, lots of it and the racing is split evenly between two days so there's no advantage to attending either day in particular. there's plenty of non-track things to do. but people seem to be bored of it and attendance is dropping, even in hungary where there's hardly any top level motorsport and the attendance has always been through the roof.

i suppose the problem is trying to find another new toy or gimmick to encourage people through the door but not drawing attention away from the main event and the main purpose of the whole thing. not only do you have to spend on a new attraction, you have to spend on new advertising to make it known, which is a difficult thing to get approval and funds for. especially with mixed-brand events like dtm.

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by DS"

As I said, 30-40.000 is close to the average season attendance in the Bundesliga. But on-track attendance has been sinking and there are some factors that accelerated that decline. You rightfully pointed out higher fuel expenses or less income. But I also think that people are more and more saturated by the DTM. It's basically the same DTM as it has been in 2006, only that BMW is now involved. Continuity isn't a bad thing, but is it really good when you still have the same crappy race format since 2003? Is it really good when your race still goes for barely over a hour?

But maybe, some things will change about that. Hans-Werner Aufrecht has said that they want to "adjust" DTM to the changed viewer's habit. But it's only "maybe" and there is real danger that DTM will make things actually worse.

I'd say that I agree with you on this. 2 mandatory pitstop+too many orders from race control only make things worse for track audience. Any where near 30,000 is a good figure when compared with BTCC or even F1, as for the numbers, but that's not the whole story. Going from one extreme of burning money in Class I old DTM era to another of ultra-austerity can kill it as well, as long as it's in the current shape. Not necessarily bad, but bland.

[DS"]

Originally Posted by bella

not only do you have to spend on a new attraction, you have to spend on new advertising to make it known, which is a difficult thing to get approval and funds for. especially with mixed-brand events like dtm.

That's also a problem. DTM lacks support series at the moment. A few years ago, it was F3 Euro Series, the Porsche Cup, the Seat Leon Supercopa, the VW Lupo Cup and one or two other support series, depending on the track. Now, it's just F3 and Porsche Cup, because VW has retired the Scirocco-R Cup after four season. I don't know if there will be another German Leon Cup, so this leaves us with two support series. Of course Mercedes, Audi and BMW could each start a support series on their own, but I guess the money's lacking.

On the other hand, the German Motorcycle Championship will race with DTM together at the Lausitzring. Maybe that could help to draw more people to the Lausitz.

[AxelF]

@DS: you are right, that 40.000 spectators is not bad, its the same than for football. But i think, that is also due to "not-bigger-stadiums".

Case "Ekström": he was ever a touring car ace, and never wanted to do Formula etc.
Only other spectacular stuff like, Rally, Rallycross etc.
He wants to have fun with what he does.
And he is always a sympathic man, looks like a young boy and has also this habit. And of course he is a swede, that speaks german! That creates also nice stories and tales, so he is famous for it.

Paffett is only famous for his complaints about others :-(

[DS"]

@AxelF: Paffett hasn't even bothered to learn one word of German during his 10+ years in Germany. Not even "bitte" or "danke". Nothing! Even Jamie Green has started to learn some German. Other foreign DTM drivers have done so as well, like Edo Mortara, Daniel Juncadella or Filipe Albuquerque (Even though he's been promoted to LMP1).

You know, with all the PR schooling for the young drivers, I wonder why the manufacturer don't send their drivers to a language school, so they can learn some German. The benefits should be obvious, since they'd have a better than interacting with the German media.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by DS"

@AxelF: Paffett hasn't even bothered to learn one word of German during his 10+ years in Germany. Not even "bitte" or "danke". Nothing! Even Jamie Green has started to learn some German. Other foreign DTM drivers have done so as well, like Edo Mortara, Daniel Juncadella or Filipe Albuquerque (Even though he's been promoted to LMP1).

You know, with all the PR schooling for the young drivers, I wonder why the manufacturer don't send their drivers to a language school, so they can learn some German. The benefits should be obvious, since they'd have a better than interacting with the German media.

Porsche actually do that, IIRC.

[winkle]

I saw the DTM for the first time at Brands 4 years ago. As Bert MK2 said it is the noise and speed that makes it unique in touring car racing.
I never understood why they didn't race on the GP circuit at Brands but I guess it doesn't matter now. If they return to race in the UK it will be at a different circuit.

The cars demand a high calibre driver which I guess is why it has such a corporate image. Some changes should be made to the format maybe having two races over the weekend would be a way forward.

If it is true that Gary Paffett has not learnt any German in his time there then I can understand the frustration felt by German fans.

[DS"]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Porsche actually do that, IIRC.

Really? So can we expect some Mark Webber interviews in German in the future?

I also value your opinions you voice in the various sportscar threads. If you've got time, maybe you can partake in this discussion. I'm sure you might have something valuable to say.

[NaBUru38]

Porsche teams work in German, I guess. So yes, you would need to know German.

[Andrew Abbott]

Originally Posted by winkle

If it is true that Gary Paffett has not learnt any German in his time there then I can understand the frustration felt by German fans.

It's true - I also found it quite surprising. It's just laziness. German would be a useful language for him to have in his repertoire.

I saw back-to-back Paffett and Green interviews on Das Erste last year and it just made Paffett look bad to be honest.

[DS"]

Di Resta's back with Mercedes in DTM: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112205

I think it's quite something to see a DTM driver go to F1 and then return to DTM right afterwards. Christijan Albers did that, too. But he was stuck with a two-year old car run by Collin Kolles. Maybe this will bring DTM some mainstream attention, because we have once again two former F1 drivers in the grid. But two capable drivers.