Audi LMP1 Discussion

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by TF110

Audi has/had a budget over $200million. We know Porsche outspend Toyota, but by a factor of nearly 3? I think a big difference is that Porsche can do a lot of in-house work. Toyota can do 80-90% in house. Audi maybe did less and stuff like out-sourcing and contracting and the battery/hybrid deal took a lot of budget.

Note that the news pieces say Audi will save around $300million a year, but they say closer to $100million. Well, they're keeping everyone onboard and not completely shutting down. Plus they're going to expand their F-E project. So it seems like they did have quite the expense if you can do all that and still save $100million!

And the move to Neustadt in 2014 meant that Audi could also do a lot of in-house work, a cue they actually took from Porsche. So that must mean that Audi are saving a lot of money by doing so, or that Porsche are still spending 2-3x Toyota's budget even with so much of their work done in-house.

You can stop deflecting by talking about Audi's budget and admit that it's just as likely that Porsche's budget is also massive, but then you wouldn't be able to be so negative about Audi's spending without being hypocritical anytime Porsche's was mentioned in response ... I can see why this might be a problem for you

Yes, I think Peugeot, BMW, Honda etc. are more likely now. They're bargaining chips are going to be bigger because the ACO are in a predicament having lost Audi, that they want to appease these guys to join.

How many times ... BMW want full EV before they join. That's not happening without massive investment. That's not going to be cheap. So it's not happening unless the budgets go through the roof. Which is not happening anytime soon.

[ederss7]

I don't know how to start this post. It's hard to accept it. They're exchanging Le Mans for DTM and FE? Really? What happened to "Le Mans is our home" or the technology relevance Le Mans offers? As Felipe Albuquerque said on Twitter, he wouldn't believe that FE took priority over the R18, and I feel the same. They could at least try to win Le Mans one more time next year.
Anyway, this is a sad day for me, really. Audi leaving Le Mans is like(strange, I don't use "if" here?) my football team stopped existing. Audi and Le Mans became a passion for me. The first LM I watched live was in 2011. And what a battle against Peugeot. Then it became a true love story. I've never missed a WEC or Le Mans race since then. Watching LM won't be the same without Audi. 24h sitting in front of the computer watching the race, all the adrenaline, the risky calls, overtakes, battles, magic pit stops etc, these won't be the same anymore. But what I will miss the most are the epic victories, even those I've only watched on YouTube.
Thank you for all these memories. Now I'm officially supporting Porsche, starting from next year, of course :-).

[Akrapovic]

It's all fine and we'll us sitting hoping for BMW and the like, but that's a temporary fix. Manufacturers come and go and some don't stay long. You'd be hard pushed to find a company that would stick around as long as Audi did. Toyota, Peugeot and BMW all quit after a fraction of the running Audi have done. Porsche is the only company that comes close. So BMW might well then up but might only run 2 years, then we're no better off.

Whilst I absolutely adore the hybrids and think we should keep them, a serious discussion needs to happen with LMP1-L and how to keep a safe amount of private entries. All those companies who wanted to make P2s but didn't get a license need to sit down with the ACO and form a plan to making P1-L a proper option. Privateers are the big safety net and they've been forced down into P2, or elsewhere.

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by gert

As for the drivers, Endurance-Info put up some thoughts about the drivers:
* Duval and di Grassi -> Formula E (as before)
* Lotterer -> Super Formula (as before) + Super GT (?)
* Tréluyer -> ditto (only the Super GT part I think)
* Fässler and Rockenfeller -> GT (since they did a few races for Corvette this year)
* Rast -> DTM (replacing Timo Scheider)
* L. Vanthoor -> Porsche GTE

* no mention abut Jarvis


I'm a bit surprised Rockenfeller and Vanthoor are mentioned, since their programmes are not affected?

Yeah, Rockfeller hasn't raced LMP1 in many years and Vanthoor hasn't ever.

I imagine at least Lotterer and Loic "fastest driver ever by far" Duval will receive offers from Porsche and Toyota to stay in LMP1. As Lotterer is in Japan for the Super Formula finale this weekend, Toyota would be best served to start luring his services asap.

[ederss7]

Good reading here: http://www.racer.com/more/viewpoints...ant-to-le-mans
And here: http://fourtitude.com/features/Featu...-mans-history/
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/i...-achievements/
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2016/1...pe-racing.html
http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/p...retrospective/

[Lagunaseca_4life]

sad day for sportscar racing indeed,its a bummer but im not to upset about it since I haven't seen an audi lmp1 race in person since 2008..........I hope this opens the doors for other manufactures who didn't want to waste huge budgets during the audi domination years...

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by gert

I doubt it.

All manufacturer's have claimed the cars are far too complicated and far too expensive to be run by a privateer.
I doubt they would change their mind now.

If it doesn't make sense, Joest won't do it.
(And I'm sure, he is one of the few who knows if it is feasible for a privateer or not)

I think this is the problem.

I think its time to rip up the rulebook for LMP1 and start with a set of rules that allow privateeers to build fast but cheaper cars. Scrap the hybrid stuff and just allow turbo V6, Turbo V8, V10, V12 and so on.

I'd love to see teams like McLaren, Williams, RML, Prodrive, developing and building LMP1 cars.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Beryl

Yeah, Rockfeller hasn't raced LMP1 in many years and Vanthoor hasn't ever.

I imagine at least Lotterer and Loic "fastest driver ever by far" Duval will receive offers from Porsche and Toyota to stay in LMP1. As Lotterer is in Japan for the Super Formula finale this weekend, Toyota would be best served to start luring his services asap.

As a matter of fact, Lotterer is racing for TOM's in Japan, which was the Toyota factory team back in the 80s and 90s. Furthermore, his teammate is Kazuki Nakajima.
If Toyota wants him, they certainly know where to find him

A lot will depend on what Lotterer wants to do. Maybe he would be interested to do the SuperGT series since he is spending a lot of time in Japan anyway.

[chernaudi]

To be honest, I'm not upset about this, since I felt something like this could be coming within a year or two anyways. Even without dieselgate, there was mounting pressure within Audi Sport to ditch the diesel engine concept for competition reasons.

I think that dieselgate and issues with budgets contributed, but Audi could've justified staying in the WEC if the results were there. The past couple of years, they haven't really been there. I think that Audi Sport have been continually miffed that when in 2013 the homologated their 2014 car based on what they were told back then, only to have the ACO do something different, inform Audi (and to be fair, everyone else) on short notice that they were doing something different, and Audi have been on the back foot ever since.

Even whey they did all they could with what they were given, the ACO refused to acknowlege that their EOT rules were screwed up. That forced Audi to take radical measures with car design, and I'm betting that some of the screw ups that Joest has had on pit road this year were due to crew members over-doing it with trying to save time in the pits because of shorter stints and longer refueling times. All of that added up to basically screwing Audi out of 3 or 4 wins this season when they had the car to beat. And that's poor return on a substantial investment that Audi were making to not be second best all the time.

I think that the guys at Audi and Audi Sport decided that enough's enough, and with their new hydrogen tech years away from seeing a race track in competition or in road cars, they're at least taking a step back until that possibility can be realized.

I sort of wish that Audi could've converted their current engines to use gasoline, or bring back the R8's engine from the crypt and used stuff like the "hotside inside" turbocharging system and other advancements on it. But VAG politics make that a pipe dream.

At least no one's losing their jobs off of this, though some obvious might either go elsewhere on their own, or be loan out to other programs with Audi's blessing.

[gert]

It's a shame Audi quits.
I'm not really surprised after all the noise and rumors of the past weeks.
I had however - like most of us - expected they would at least have raced in 2017.
Alas, not happening.

I'm grateful to have witnessed a lot of intriguing battles, not only at Le Mans but also at Sebring, Road Atlanta and various rounds of the WEC, LMS and ALMS Audi took part in.
All the best to all involved!


Audi's departure may or may not have consequences on the WEC and on Le Mans, but it 's too early to tell.

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I think this is the problem.

I think its time to rip up the rulebook for LMP1 and start with a set of rules that allow privateeers to build fast but cheaper cars. Scrap the hybrid stuff and just allow turbo V6, Turbo V8, V10, V12 and so on.

I'd love to see teams like McLaren, Williams, RML, Prodrive, developing and building LMP1 cars.

The last "conventional" pure petrol powered factory LMP1 car was the Aston Martin, and that wasn't a great effort. Before that you're looking at Bentley. Unless you're willing to make the enormous step of putting aside all factory involvement and accompanying coverage in the top class at Le Mans it's not a reasonable move.

You bring up McLaren but they'd be in the hybrid camp if anything. Williams too, they've been a technology supplier for other hybrid Porsches and supply the batteries for Formula E. Endurance racing by nature does not lend itself to trying to sell on pure race entertainment, so high technology is a core component of attracting interest. In the long term hybrids will become cheaper and more common, there will be a day not too far off where GTE will have to allow them.

[gert]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Endurance racing by nature does not lend itself to trying to sell on pure race entertainment, so high technology is a core component of attracting interest.

True, especially in the *Prototype* category of the Endurance world.

--

On one hand, I would like to see more contenders in the top class, and a simpler and lower-cost formula may achieve that. However, I'm not sure the manufacturers named (Porsche-Audi-Toyota-BMW-Nissan....) would be interested in fielding cars by that ruleset. Without them, that would leave us with efforts like Rebellion, ByKolles, Strakka, ... or some DPI-esque like entries.

Not saying it would be bad, the racing could be fairly good. Just ... different.

--

Other part of the same story: I fondly remember a time when everyone could field a Porsche 956 or 962 and be successful with it.
However if nowadays I watch an LMS race and see an all-Ligier filed in LMP3, I get sad because there is no variety even though there are 3 (4?) different chassis available.

That's a contradiction in itself I know, and I can't really explain why I liked it then, and not so much right now. Maybe because I was quite young in the mid 80's and somewhat older now? I sincerely can't tell.

[chernaudi]

I also felt that the writing was on the wall by looking at Audi Sport's twitter and FB pages all season. Their coverage was heavily biased towards the GT3 program and DTM. Relatively relaxed coverage of the WEC.

[Beryl]

Originally Posted by gert

A lot will depend on what Lotterer wants to do. Maybe he would be interested to do the SuperGT series since he is spending a lot of time in Japan anyway.

I'm not sure you are aware, but Lotterer has previously raced in Super GT and is a former champion. Furthermore, he was one of the most impressive drivers to have ever driven in the series. The likes of Treluyer and Duval were good Super GT drivers, but Andre was on another level, he stood out quite a lot. If he wants to go back to Super GT, I'd wager many doors would instantly swing open.

But as you say, it depends on what he wants to do now. If he wants to stay in LMP1 or move to a new challenge like FE with Audi, I'm near certain he would be accommodated as well.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by J Jay

And the move to Neustadt in 2014 meant that Audi could also do a lot of in-house work, a cue they actually took from Porsche. So that must mean that Audi are saving a lot of money by doing so, or that Porsche are still spending 2-3x Toyota's budget even with so much of their work done in-house.

You can stop deflecting by talking about Audi's budget and admit that it's just as likely that Porsche's budget is also massive, but then you wouldn't be able to be so negative about Audi's spending without being hypocritical anytime Porsche's was mentioned in response ... I can see why this might be a problem for you



How many times ... BMW want full EV before they join. That's not happening without massive investment. That's not going to be cheap. So it's not happening unless the budgets go through the roof. Which is not happening anytime soon.

Deflecting? No, sorry to disappoint. I never said Porsche didn't have a big budget, I said Audi were the biggest spenders. That's not being hypocritical. I think you need to go back a reread what was said before trying to pass judgement. I don't like that high road you're trying to take as if I'm trying to put only Audi down. I've said it before that Porsche spends too much. Please don't read selectively to try and paint some picture of me. I'd pass the same courtesy to you.

Also, BMW never said they wanted to do only EV. Everything out there, all the stories are talking about hydrogen, on a possible G56 entry. That's FCV not EV. They can do the electric route in Formula E (with Andretti).

[JoeF]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I think it was 17 years, continuously. 1999-2016.

I am a huge Porsche fan, but they've never run in the top categories for 17 years straight. Give kudos where they are deserved.

Not pure factory at Le Mans but Porsche ran either works supported or privateer efforts in the top classes there every year from 1976-1998.

[JoeF]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

Any chance of Joest running an Audi or two at Le Mans next year on a privateer basis?

In all likelihood no, but we can hope!

I would think more of a chance of something with Porsche, who he built his name with, and many forget or don't remember if there was any chance in the foreseeable future!!!

[ederss7]

I have a feeling that only the high costs wouldn't be reason strong enough behind the decision. The disappointment(and frustation) with the rules and the tendency of more dependence on hybrid power, and therefore relying even more on how the rule makers would make diesel viable against petrol must have played a major role in their decision. In other words, Audi have lost confidence on the rules and spending in the diesel technology has become an incertainty in this scenery(not only because of the dieselgate).

[bobec]

Official statement by ACO/WEC

http://www.fiawec.com/en/news/offici...ent-_4512.html

[rdjones]

As many people have said yesterday was a sad day for sports car racing. Audi have been a fantastic ambassadors for Le Mans and WEC (and the ALMS before that). I would recommend that ever one listens to last nights Midweek Motorsport on Radio Le Mans as they had some interesting thoughts on Audi sports car future once the dust has settled.

Now it interesting that all the staff are being kept on but 300 people to run FE/DTM/TCR/GT3, I have to agree with what Hindy said on RLM last night is there something going on the background which could be either another LMP1 program using different technology which means they could return in 5 or 6 years time when the next generation of hybrid petrol/electric road cars come on stream.

This was also mentioned on RLM last night and I had same thought could there be a dpi program in the wings, I can't see that happening in 2017, but it could happen in 2018.

[Akrapovic]

It could be as simple as Peugeot. VAG has bother because of diesels like Peugeot had problems with profits. Get through that and get back in the game. When diesels blow over and fines are paid, we may well see them back.

[maximus]

I've read the statement from Joest this morning, my impression is that they were a bit surprised by the decision to cancel after this season.

Shame on Audi in this regard as in my opinion they have dropped Joest in it to a degree, it's very late on now for them to find another program.

[Mal]

I don't think one company having two brands in LMP1 was ever going to last forever and I think Diesel has run its course for the moment - so Audi leaving is the obvious choice.

It has been great fun though! Not suire what I will replace my RS4 with though ... Porsche or Toyota?

[chernaudi]

Yet from my POV, judging by Audi Sport's own social media bias in covering DTM and GT3 vs the WEC, this was probably in the works for a while. Even Jarvis said he was expecting Audi to say that Audi Sport were going to can the WEC for the near term, just not at the end of this season.

Yeah, Joest might have gotten confirmation of this happening now late, but it's obvious to me that Audi were planning the pull out for a while, it was just a question of when.

[GasperG]

Originally Posted by Mal

I don't think one company having two brands in LMP1 was ever going to last forever and I think Diesel has run its course for the moment - so Audi leaving is the obvious choice.

It has been great fun though! Not suire what I will replace my RS4 with though ... Porsche or Toyota?

Replace it with two cars: GT86/BRZ and Prius