McLaren: not very good (merged)

[SetikX]

After Sepangs race, I contemplated are McLaren better situated this year then they were last year? Granted last year they were leading the WDC and WCC, and were looking to run away with a Championship win. Last year the mp418 was still meant to come out midseason however was delayed till 2004. Last year alot of luck helped out McLaren, they managed to stay sticked to the track whilst rain pummeled in Sepang (I think it was sepang 2004) whilst teams such as Ferrari fell off the track.

That compared to this year, we have the new car out at the start of the season that they can develop. They have SOME pace when the Michelins are going well and there is more on the line for both DC and KR. Sure this year ferrari is running away with the championship, but is McLaren better situated for long term success with this package then they were last year?

BTW on a side note, this year is what I have prayed for in an f1 season, six f1 teams fighting it out. Mclaren Ferrari Williams BAR Renault and Jaguar.

[Rindt]

BTW on a side note, this year is what I have prayed for in an f1 season, six f1 teams fighting it out. Mclaren Ferrari Williams BAR Renault and Jaguar.

What exactly are they fighting out? Ferrari is -again- in a league of its own. Williams seems to have the upperhand in trying to catch them, after that it is close between BAR, Renault and McLaren. Today, Button had no problem keeping Coulthard and Raikkonen at bay (and he took about 25 seconds on Trulli in the second half of the race).

On McLaren:

Last year they had a card up their sleeve (the MP4/18). Now, they have their weapons revealed, yet it turns out to be nothing that the competition is fearing. They find themselves in the scramble for 4th to 8th place. Perhaps -on a good day- a podiumfinish.

[jetsetter]

McLaren don't even look like the same team that fought out the championship last year & have to have a long hard look at themselves before the years a complete write off.

[Kicking-back]

And you think they're not "having a long hard look at themselves"?

McLaren, like Williams always bounces back.

The car had reasonable pace at Sepang.

As far as I can see the problems are engine related - some sources say they're 50-60hp down on the best engines, and Mercedes always seem to have been a bit dodgy when it comes to reliability.

[SetikX]

Umm... Fighting out for what? Im sorry, I didnt realise that the only person to finish the Grand Prix was the winner. My mistake in thinking that positions 2-19 even existed. I must have the wrong idea of what the pinacle of motor sport is about if all we care about is one red car.

All sarcasm aside, McLaren, Williams, Jaguar, BAR and Renault are fighting it out for points. (You see Rindt the 'points allocation system' is a way of awarding drivers who finish in the top 8 positions points; the more points you win the higher your rank in the Championship. I assume you didnt know this, as in your theory there is nothing to fight for other then first place.)

And Jetsetter, my point is that now they have all their cards on the table, they can work on the development on that car, focussing all energies on making that car reliable. Remember last season Williams looked out of the WDC however improved their car significantly? Aerodynamics is just as big a problem as engine weakness, and Williams over came it last year - why write off Mclaren?

[Kicking-back]

McLaren will get it sorted.

Question is - should they now be pushing Mercedes for more power, even if it comes with a short-term loss of reliability.

If you're not in championship contention, it's better in many ways to blow up from the lead of a race, than to take a reliable but underpowered car home in 6th.

[jetsetter]

I'm in no way writing off McLaren as i would love them to take the challenge up to Ferrari but their performances in the first two GP's of the year have been un McLaren like & i just hope that they sort it out before it's too late for this year.

[Rindt]

Originally posted by SetikX
Umm... Fighting out for what? Im sorry, I didnt realise that the only person to finish the Grand Prix was the winner. My mistake in thinking that positions 2-19 even existed. I must have the wrong idea of what the pinacle of motor sport is about if all we care about is one red car.

All sarcasm aside, McLaren, Williams, Jaguar, BAR and Renault are fighting it out for points. (You see Rindt the 'points allocation system' is a way of awarding drivers who finish in the top 8 positions points; the more points you win the higher your rank in the Championship. I assume you didnt know this, as in your theory there is nothing to fight for other then first place.)

Don't know what sparked the sarcasm, but when you state BAR, McLaren, Renault and Jaguar are fighting it out, I wonder where you're getting at in relation to 'it'. So, what are we talking about? Second place in the constructorschampionship? If that is the case, than I suppose Jaguar is out of place in that list (0 points as we speak and still basically a one-car-team). Third place? Well, perhaps, but thats nothing McLaren will get excited about. BAR would be ecstatic and Renault would be pleased to I imagine. Still out of grasp for Jaguar though.

When we talk about Formula 1 -or any sport for that matter- the assumption is that the fight is for the win itself. It's what makes an environment competative and I suppose we can agree on the assumption that F1 is one of the most competative environments in the world. So, by naming the teams you did, I really think a clarification of 'it' is on order. Thats the only reason I asked (and I still think it is remarkable you put Jaguar in this league, whatever they are supposedly fighting over).

[Rindt]

If you're not in championship contention, it's better in many ways to blow up from the lead of a race, than to take a reliable but underpowered car home in 6th.

Why is that? Whats the point of not finishing a race -thereby gaining 0 points- over finishing a race with a good prospect of a handful of points? McLaren don't need to 'impress' potential sponsors, do they? I suppose McLaren can make use of all the miles they can get. First you seek reliability, and from there you have a perfect base of development to make the car, besides reliable, quick.

[Kicking-back]

It's often easier to make a quick car reliable than it is to make a slow car quick.

[ralf fan]

well atleast an improvement for Mclaren this weekend. Kimi was atleast running with the front runners. But Merc seem to have some serious reliability issues. Kimi 0 pts from 2 who'd have predicted that?

[F1Pete]

McLaren will be back don't anyone worry. What I am worried about is when McLaren does make its comeback, Ferrari will probably make another plea to the FIA to shoot them down to secure themselves another championship (ie. last year's Mich tires, the McLaren use of berylium in their engines when blowing competition away). Btw, don't make a complaint against Ferrari because you won't win (ie. barge boards..TGF and the maFIA will come down on you).

Yes, McLaren will develop the car for major improvements, but they don't have the tire cushion they depended on last year. Those Bridgestones really worked today.

[Red]

[f1atic]

I am not so certain that McLaren are in a good situation for the long term compared to last season - unless your definition of long term takes in 2005. The MP4-18 was competitive and in actuality, would likely have served them well this weekend. The MP4-19 is not terribly competitive in pace and obviously off in reliability.

McLaren have given Ferrari a two race head start and basically a 10% handicap. Ferrari are now 29 points up on them. Even Williams have a full race advantage if one looks at the points.

I would hate to see them not be in the top 3, but they have their work cut out for them, especially with the unquestionable advances of Renault and BAR.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Kicking-back




The car had reasonable pace at Sepang.

Reasonable pace? not too sure that Ron Dennis and the other top knobs at McLaren-Mercades would think that being beaten by BAR on merit (before Kimi's failure) can be classed as reasonable.

McLaren should be looking at minimum of being 3rd fastest team now not later in the season!

Originally posted by Kicking-back


McLaren, like Williams always bounces back.

However, i do agree with this statement, they will bounce back, but it will be too late to compete in either championship with Ferrari and Williams, the question being of course, will it be too late to compete with Renault and possibly BAR?

[Mr V]

Originally posted by F1Pete
What I am worried about is when McLaren does make its comeback, Ferrari will probably make another plea to the FIA to shoot them down to secure themselves another championship

Mclaren will be far too far behind for Ferrari to have to think about this sort of thing.

[SetikX]

Rindt; I used to have a strong dislike for the boys in Red. They controlled everyrace in 2002, and it felt like the world was against the rest of the field. HOWEVER, I have conceded the best car and best driver is winning the WDC this year, and it will be take a bullet to stop him (dont get any ideas folks), so now I look down the grid and find the tussel between Williams, Mclaren, BAR and to a certain extent Renault and Jag to entice my interest in the sport. For me WCC third place will be highly sort after (sure sure, I know Mclaren wont care for anything but a win, but from our perspective, itll be exciting).

What spurred the sarcasm is last night I read your comments at 3 in the morning, and read that you put Mclaren 6th team on the grid, I am not sure how I read that, and for the misunderstanding I apologise.

and F1Pete the sooner u realise ferrari are not the devil, and Schumacher has some merits, the sooner u will enjoy the sport. Schumacher drives a beautiful race, and although I would enjoy to read of his retirement end of 04, whilst he is around, I will give him the wins and watch the middle field.

[twig]

As a McLaren fan - as frustrating as Raikkonen's retirement was in Malaysia, i am impressed at the gains the car has made between the first two races.

Had Raikkonen's engine not expired, he was looking at a podium, which is a huge cry from where they were running last race - 10th and 11th.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by twig


Had Raikkonen's engine not expired, he was looking at a podium,

He was looking at 4th place, having already been passed by Button before the car went pop.

[Dani Filth]

McLaren is in big trouble .. really big ...

[climb]

Originally posted by Kicking-back

...
McLaren, like Williams always bounces back.
...

Yes, but the problem is, how further will Ferrari have gone when they start bouncing back?

My fear is that, once again, they will catch up with them too late.

[Spudgun]

Originally posted by SetikX
Rindt; I used to have a strong dislike for the boys in Red. They controlled everyrace in 2002, and it felt like the world was against the rest of the field. HOWEVER, I have conceded the best car and best driver is winning the WDC this year, and it will be take a bullet to stop him (dont get any ideas folks), so now I look down the grid and find the tussel between Williams, Mclaren, BAR and to a certain extent Renault and Jag to entice my interest in the sport. For me WCC third place will be highly sort after (sure sure, I know Mclaren wont care for anything but a win, but from our perspective, itll be exciting).

What spurred the sarcasm is last night I read your comments at 3 in the morning, and read that you put Mclaren 6th team on the grid, I am not sure how I read that, and for the misunderstanding I apologise.

and F1Pete the sooner u realise ferrari are not the devil, and Schumacher has some merits, the sooner u will enjoy the sport. Schumacher drives a beautiful race, and although I would enjoy to read of his retirement end of 04, whilst he is around, I will give him the wins and watch the middle field.

I know this is a bit OT, but I feel that I need to respond.

So after just 2 grand prix of 18 the championship should be written off? So Michael has won the first two GP, that doesn't mean that he'll win the other 16.

McLaren, Williams etc.. aren't just going to sit around and accept it. Many developments will be coming on stream through the next weeks and months from all the teams.

It's still early days. Say for example, Michael has a DNF in Bahrain and JPM wins. Michael would no longer be leading the championship.

It's great to see the other teams having a right good scrap, but I'm also interested to see how they are going to catch Ferrari. It's been done before, so don't write off so early the 2004 season. It's barely even begun.

[Glen]

Originally posted by SetikX
BTW on a side note, this year is what I have prayed for in an f1 season, six f1 teams fighting it out. Mclaren Ferrari Williams BAR Renault and Jaguar.

Huh? How do you work that one out? Jaguar have no points. Yet again their car has serious and embarrassing flaws - considering that it is a straightforward development of last year's car this is crazy. At the moment I wouldn't rate them any better than Sauber - and of course Sauber do actually have a WCC point. jaguar's qualifying performance is grossly flattered by two things - the car puts far too much energy into the rear tyres (great for one lap, crappy for the race) and one of their drivers is Mark Webber (all great there!).

I'd lay money that Toyota will overhaul them by mid season. IMO There will be the top five teams (since BAR are up there, justifiably) and an appreciable gap to Toyota, Sauber, Jaguar, Jordan and Minardi - in that order.

[climb]

We all hope you're right spudgun! (as a tifosi, I do hope there'll be some more competition)
But if Ferrari opponents will surely improve their cars, you cannot expect that the Rosse will keep sleeping , waiting for that moment.
Of course they'll improve as well, so catching uo with them will a tough commitment.

BTW: d'you know who'll be the first team to get back to track for testing? Ferrari apparently, since they'll be testing at mugello with MS himself, and Badoer!
Is it clearer now why it's gonna be very difficult to beat them?

[Spudgun]

I agree with you climb, it is going to be very difficult, but not impossible!

Back on topic though, I think the big problem McLaren have is Mercedes. Down on power and then reduced rev-limit on top of that. What are they playing at? The engines have not been that great for the last couple years. They must have similar resource to BMW and look at the difference.

If Merecedes (well, Ilmor) can gain reliability and increase power then they'll be back. The question is can they do it and if so how quickliy?