24h Nürburgring/VLN

[Babapapa]

Originally Posted by Chiana

concentrate on other classes.

;-)

both VW Golf 3 of Hess/Esser-Motorsport back at the 24h:
http://www.vw-motorsport.eu/index.ph...le-nachrichten

http://www.vw-motorsport.eu/images/s...4h2011-110.jpg

[AndrewF31]

Originally Posted by Babapapa

gazoo with one L-FA and two GT86:
http://gazoo.com/racing/grmn/nur2012/index.asp

In case your google translator didn't come out, driver lineups:


Gazoo Racing Lexus LFA - Takayuki Kino****a, Akira Iida, Juichi Wakisaka
Gazoo Racing Toyota GT86 - Masahiko Kageyama, Kumi Sato, Yoshinobu Katsumata
Gazoo Racing Toyota GT86 - Hiroaki Ishiura, Kazuya Oshima, Takuto Iguchi, Takagi Real

LOL, poor Takayuki was word filtered......

[FIRE]

Why only Japanese drivers? On this way it doesn't give much promotion outside Japan.

[AndrewF31]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Why only Japanese drivers? On this way it doesn't give much promotion outside Japan.

2 years ago they had a car with Lotterer, Armin Hahne and Jochem Krumbach.

Last year only non-Japanese was Lotterer.

[tbz]

Originally Posted by AndrewF31

In case your google translator didn't come out, driver lineups:


Gazoo Racing Lexus LFA - Takayuki Kino****a, Akira Iida, Juichi Wakisaka
Gazoo Racing Toyota GT86 - Masahiko Kageyama, Kumi Sato, Yoshinobu Katsumata
Gazoo Racing Toyota GT86 - Hiroaki Ishiura, Kazuya Oshima, Takuto Iguchi, Takagi Real

LOL, poor Takayuki was word filtered......

Takayuki Kino****a = Takayuki Kino'$hit'a that's why google doesn't translate (bad word detected)

[Nick6]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Too bad VLN race highlights concentrate 99% on that freaking GT3...

But N24 is still gonna be as fabulous as ever, as said before the level of quality in teams is fabulous, atmosphere is on par with Le Mans and the track itself loses to no-one. I can always ignore SP9/GT3 freak show from my mind and concentrate on other classes.

Sadly a lot of the homebuilt specials that use to populate Sp6, 7 and 8 have faded away.

[Babapapa]

not all like the hyundai genesis coupe from schumann motorsport (saarbrücken) with the V6 4,0l. engine of the SP8:

http://schumann-motorsport.zmps.de/h...genesis-coupe/

[lemansfan]

http://www.imagesup.de/bild-IMG_JPG-117320.htm

With a Class Win in SP8 a good Start for this new Projekt .

[Carbone]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Too bad VLN race highlights concentrate 99% on that freaking GT3...

OK Chiana. we understood that you did not like the GT3 and his BOP. But why you never speak to us about the BOP in GTE ?

http://private.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/vchp/430/$FILE/12-D0004-LMGTE_BOP.pdf?Openelement

- Ferrari F458 : no BOP
- Porsche 997 GT3 RSR : -25 kg / restrictors : +0.3 mm
- Corvette C6R ZR1 : restrictors : +1.3 mm / rear wing : +75 mm
- Aston Martin Vantage : -50 kg / restrictors : +1.4 mm / Gurney : -10mm / Fuel tank +5 liters / rear wing : +100 mm
- BMW M3 GT : restrictors : +0.8 mm / rear wing : +100 mm
- Lotus Evora : -50 kg / restrictors : +1.4 mm / rear wing : +100 mm

Who today still wants to buy a GTE ?

Price of a GT3 manufactures : 300’000 – 350’000 Euro
Price of a GTE manufactures : 500'000 – 550'000 Euro

Cost for a season in WEC or in ALMS with a GTE : 1'000'000 - 1'500'000 Euro… (2 - 3 times less in GT3)

Spa Francorchamps 2011 : GTE (WEC) : 2'20''7 (F458 GTE AF Corse) / 2'19''2 (F458 GT3 Vita4One)

More of 10 manufacturers models in GT3 : Audi, Ferrari, BMW, McLaren, Porsche, Aston Martin, Nissan, Mercedes, etc.

Only some models in GTE : Ferrari, Porsche (the car is 6 years old), Corvette (only 4 cars run on all the planet), Aston Martin Vantage V8 (only 2 or 3 cars run on all the planet), BMW M3 GT (only 2 cars run on all the planet and ended in 2013), Lotus Evora (only 2 or 3 cars run on all the planet), Spyker KO, Ford GT KO, Jaguar KO, Panoz KO, Lamborghini Gallardo KO, etc.

Approximately 100 GT3 sold during the interseason 2011 - 2012 (+20 McLaren, +20 Audi R8 LMS Ultra, +10 BMW Z4, +10 Mercedes SLS, +10 Ferrari F458, 6 Aston Martin Vantage V12, 6 Nissan GTR, etc.).

How many GTE sold in one year ? 10 or maybe 15…

How many championships for the GTE ? 4 or 5 (WEC, ALMS ELMS, GT Open)

How many cars registered in these championships ? WEC = 12 but only 5 GTE PRO / ALMS = 12 / ELMS = 8 but only 3 GTE PRO ...

How many championships where the GTE can won at the general classification ? only 1 (GT Open)

GT3 Championships : World GT (18 cars), Blancpain (+50 cars), ADAC GT (40 cars), VLN (20 cars), FIA GT3, British GT, GT Tour (France), Brasil GT, Australian GT, GT Open, Super GT (GT300), Super Taikyu (Japan), Asian Festival of Speed, etc.

GT3 teams = AF Corse, Vita4One, Manthey, Prospeed, Hexis, Schubert, etc…

Your bad faith and your frustration make that your comments became ridiculous .

[FIRE]

And thanks to GT3 VLN has become a more open series instead of a Porsche and BMW Cup.

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Carbone

Your bad faith and your frustration make that your comments became ridiculous .

I don't think he likes GTE BoP, either. But the level of it in GT3 is staggering, I fail to see how GT3 can become exciting to anyone, or anything more then a passing amusement, since the races are decided by luck, and FIA/ACO decisions.

[Deleted]

Precisely. While GT2 is not nowhere near the GT3 level of artificiality yet, there are some really worrying signs in the air. Anyone who has ever read my posts here knows I'm most certainly not satisfied with the increasing use of bop and waivers in GT2. The ACO ideology has changed in the last couple of years have and yes, I'm also aware that the grid numbers are slowly dropping pretty much everywhere.

In GT3 there are no regulations and therefore race results are determined by some french GT committee in wine cellar, or alternatively by luck/driver/conditions etc. In GT2 there are regulations but no-one but Ferrari is actually obeying them, again thanks to increasing use of bop & waivers as manufacturers are lobbying to get more advantageus adjustments. I didn't think the 0,5% rule in GT2 was big enough last year (remember it was 2% in LMP1 because Peugeot & Audi would've started to cry louder otherwise) but at least it was something. Now ACO has dropped that from the regulations too.

But: If GT2 was GT3, Jaguar XKR and Lotus Evora would be multiple race winners by now and the champions of previous season would've been pegged back considerably. We would also have performance balancing test session prior to start of the season and weight/restrictors could be adjusted between practice, qualifying and race sessions, etc.

Summary - GT2 is still relatively healthy in my books but it's certainly not the same class of few years ago, as politics and other dirty deals behind the curtains are starting to rule the show ever more

[Carbone]

The BOP of the GT3 has never allowed bad cars to win many races or championships, because the performance has to reach the level of a model standard built by a factory (Aston Martin DBRS9, Audi R8, etc.).

Many models disappeared rather quickly due to the lack of performance (Maserati Gransport, Ford Mustang FR500, Ascari, Ford Mustang VDS, etc.). Several other models were evolved to reach the performance (BMW Z4 in 2010: engine 4.0L to 4.4L, then aerodynamics and suspensions in 2011 / Porsche 997 Cup S to 997 GT3R / Lamborghini LP520 to LP560 to LP600, etc.).

But I agree, the BOP of the GT3 is not perfect, but today there is BOP in LMP1, LMP2, GTE, GT GrandAM, SuperGT (GT300), etc. In GT3, we find every biggest manufacturers with cars very well developed especially since 2010, many different championships (sprint and endurance), renowned races (24 hours of Spa, 24 hours of Nurburgring, etc.), good teams, good drivers. What promoter has a championship (Blancpain) with more than 50 cars and more than 10 brands in a single category ?

Concerning the GTE (GT2), I am also against the BOP because there is a stiff regulations and it is stupid to tell to a manufacturer to make a car according to a regulation of 26 pages, and then to give adjustments to all the cars (except the Ferrari) with enormous differences (-50 kg , etc.).

Before 2010, the GT2 was very boring (Ferrari, Porsche, Ferrari, Porsche, Ferrari, etc.) because no brand managed to be successful. The BMW M3 and the Corvette ZR1 were never in compliance with the regulation and the others brands were never fast or reliable.

The GT1 (2000 to 2011) was interesting, but not the GT2 with this boring fight Ferrari vs Porsche .

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Carbone

Before 2010, the GT2 was very boring (Ferrari, Porsche, Ferrari, Porsche, Ferrari, etc.) because no brand managed to be successful. The BMW M3 and the Corvette ZR1 were never in compliance with the regulation and the others brands were never fast or reliable.

The GT1 (2000 to 2011) was interesting, but not the GT2 with this boring fight Ferrari vs Porsche .

I don't know what you were watching but pre 2010 GTE was nothing but boring. It was some of the most exciting racing around. And I don't exacly see how Porsche vs Ferrari doesn't wet anyone's appetite.

Because Ferrari vs Porsche battles were so exciting and Awesome is the reason BMW and corvette entered.

BTW you can't compare LMP1 BoP with GT3 BoP, they are not even close to each other....And yest crap cars win in GT3 all you have to do is look ate the BoP table to realise that

[TF110]

I think you meant to say- ANYTHING but boring. Nothing but boring would mean it was, BORING! Just helping you out in the future with the english language barrier. Every thread is turning into a BOP discussion. It exists, lets move on regardless of whether you like it or not.

[Ultimo]

BoP, GT3, GT1 and 2 and 3, GTE, SRO, how much farther must we go!?

*Sung to We Didn't Start the Fire by Billy Joel.

[Carbone]

Originally Posted by arakis

I don't know what you were watching but pre 2010 GTE was nothing but boring. It was some of the most exciting racing around. And I don't exacly see how Porsche vs Ferrari doesn't wet anyone's appetite.

Because Ferrari vs Porsche battles were so exciting and Awesome is the reason BMW and corvette entered.

BTW you can't compare LMP1 BoP with GT3 BoP, they are not even close to each other....And yest crap cars win in GT3 all you have to do is look ate the BoP table to realise that

I don't compare the BOP of the LMP1 and GT3, I say simply that many categories and championships have a BOP (maybe too much), even if the application is different. I prefer the category GT3 where from the beginning things are clear for everybody (manufacturers, teams, pilots), that is no technical regulations, but a BOP, rather than a category GTE where the regulation impose to build a car in the millimeter and in the kilo, and then the legislator (ACO, IMSA) give adjustments in centimeters and in tens of kilos. This principle does not play fair, especially for the manufacturer who spent millions of Euro to develop the best car. Ask Michelotto or Giuseppe Risi for what they think of the BOP of the GTE.

To end it with the category GT3, this one corresponds to an economic reality (better report price / performance / choice in GT) and practically everybody is present in this class (manufacturers, teams, pilots) and numerous championships want to have GT3 (soon the ELMS ?) and the BOP is not a brake on massive arrival of tens of cars in numerous championships on all the planet.

For the GT2 and before 2010, in my opinion the category was boring and I speak about the unlimited fight Ferrari vs Porsche. I went to see numerous races in FIA GT and the fight Maserati MC12, Corvette C6-R, Aston Martin DBR9, Saleen S7-R, Ferrari F550, etc. darkened totally the GT2. After 2010, the GT2 became interesting, but only because of this not fair-play BOP.

[arakis]

GTE pre 2010 every race was like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjWo8VdMb8I

[Carbone]

Originally Posted by arakis

GTE pre 2010 every race was like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjWo8VdMb8I

Yes, it's beautiful, but Ferrari, Porsche, Ferrari, Porsche, Ferrari, etc. and especially in ALMS, thanks to the numerous safety-car and American particular circuits, because in Europe (FIA GT or LMS), You can go to have a nap, especially if the GT2 runs in the middle of GT1 or of prototypes.

I can also show you tens of videos of intense fights between several brands (and not only 2) in FIA GT1, FIA GT3, ADAC GT or VLN (class SP9) .

[arakis]

Originally Posted by Carbone

Yes, it's beautiful, but Ferrari, Porsche, Ferrari, Porsche, Ferrari, etc. and especially in ALMS, thanks to the numerous safety-car and American particular circuits, because in Europe (FIA GT or LMS), You can go to have a nap, especially if the GT2 runs in the middle of GT1 or of prototypes.

I can also show you tens of videos of intense fights between several brands (and not only 2) in FIA GT1, FIA GT3, ADAC GT or VLN (class SP9) .

While I might agree with you that some people might find 2 brand only racing boring (I don't when the two brands are the greatest motorsport brands in history) but I can assure you that the racing was always exciting, I watched 90% of all ACO/FIA GTE/GT2/NGT races since 2001... FIA GT2 was very exiting, with races being won regularly on the last few laps. you probably never noticed it, 'cause the producers didn't show that much of it on TV.... with the exception of LMS which did have a lot of snooze fest races....

[FIRE]

GT3 in most cases is also exciting. E.g. last weekend the ADAC GT Masters had good racing.

[Rodger Davies]

it has exciting racing and variation, but not the legitimacy of the cars involved in it. I'm sitting on the fence to a degree, because I appreciate the noise and sounds of the GT3 cars, but I don't give as much credit to the winning car and manufacture as I have done through the years of GT racing since the end of the 90s.

The problem in this context (attempting to bring the thread sort of on topic) is that the opening VLN races, for example, become a question of who can lose by most in order to gain themselves favourable BoP for the 24 hours, instead of each trying to develop their advantages. I hope the organisers will have learnt their lesson from last year and won't penalise Porsche on their strength in the first round.

[Babapapa]

Originally Posted by Rodger Davies

The problem in this context (attempting to bring the thread sort of on topic) is that the opening VLN races, for example, become a question of who can lose by most in order to gain themselves favourable BoP for the 24 hours, instead of each trying to develop their advantages. I hope the organisers will have learnt their lesson from last year and won't penalise Porsche on their strength in the first round.

i think they done it with the top40-qualifying, which you see hopefully on friday evening.

they teams try to improve as fast as possible in the VLN to get this advantage for the 24h-race. in the years before you saw a lot of pokergames, with top-sector-times and average laptimes.

so the changes in the BoP until the 24h-race will include the information about the training-laptimes of the best competitors.

although it's a race in germany and i think the hometeams will get an advantage. ;-)

for example the audiR8 got a very high fuel consumption. to level this disadvantage they can take more fuel and can refuel more quickly than their competitors.

thy other favorites are for me some porsche-teams, mercedes and the BMW Z4 with the best handling in the curves but a disadvantage in their high-speed. in this year the got 400ccm more (4,4l. after 4,0l.) and the BMW-works support.

the other big bangers are particular braked out like the P4/5, which is a prototype.

the actual BoP can be seen here:
http://www.vln.de/includes/download....n/2012-BoP.pdf

nevertheless this field will make a spectacular show and in opposite to the maybe calmer le mans race without peugeot the battle of the N24 in 2012 will bring us quicker laptimes than before. hopefully the incidents and the accidents this year will bring us only cold-formed steel.

[Rodger Davies]

again, that's good incentive not to perform well in qualfying, which makes that a poker game in itself! Will make the race interesting anyway.

Either way, I like that the cars still have their own characteristics, despite everything else. For example, last year I remember the BMW getting close behind the Mercedes in the twistier sections but not being able to keep up on the straight. That's how it should be with BoP, in my opinion, each car having its own strengths and weaknesses.

Any idea when the next entry list will be out for the VLN? The race is this weekend, so obviously Marc VdS are out and the Haribo Porsche and Black Falcon teams may not be too. The 458 will be, apparently, although I hadn't realised until recently that that's not a GT3 version.

[Babapapa]

on tuesday before the race a report will be shown.
http://vln.de/newsausgabe.de.php?id=2941

normally the entry list follows wednesday afternoon on vln.de

so uwe alzen, marc basseng, claudia huertgen, marc lieb, marcel faessler, andrea piccini, the mamerow-audi, the L-FA and the F458 from gt-corse - http://www.gt-corse.de/home-2/?lang=en - will be there. 190 startes by now.