24h Nürburgring/VLN

[morningview66]

Surely there is a difference between the Ferrari 458 GT2/GTE car and the Ferrari 458 GT3 in the bop.

Is the event even open to GTEs this year as i dont see any on the entry list.

For some reason the Ferrari also seems to be classed as an SP8 rather than an SP9 with the rest of the GT3s. Any ideas why this is??

[alexkiller8]

but not being present any 458 GT3 the bop hasn't been done for that car for the SP9 class (or maybe not revealed in the sheet, who knows). The only 458 is that one custom made (i don't know who did that car but it is not a michelotto car, i mean the car #458 in the last saturday race) but i don't know if will run in the 24h race, if will be sure is a SP8 class car.

[GregoryDG]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I wonder if you would complain if it were Ferrari in Porsche's shoes?

I'm not a Ferrari fan, if that's what you mean.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by GregoryDG

I'm not a Ferrari fan, if that's what you mean.

Well, do you understand that your position is misleading?
Look Ferrari has a 4.5 L engine and is racing against a Porsche with a 4.0 L engine (that was never designed to be that big in the fist place). Yes, the original BoP "decided" that this advantage was only worth 0.3 mm bigger restrictors for the lesser engined car. Well that has proven to be an underestimation, so more BoP needs to be applied.
Do I like it. No! But if they are going to allow cars with different engine sizes and very different design philosophies race against each other, then I'm afraid that we are going to be stuck with BoP.
P.S If the rules were corrected or better written (in some cases) then so much BoP would perhaps not be as necessary.

[Deleted]

"Decided" is a bad word as the original 0,3mm difference (28.3 <-> 28.6) is perfectly justified as that's how the official displacement / restrictor table goes and has always gone, more or less. The other 0.3mm that got Porsche into 28,9mm is the actual BoP adjustment, along with the 35kg weight break

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Chiana

"Decided" is a bad word as the original 0,3mm difference (28.3 <-> 28.6) is perfectly justified as that's how the official displacement / restrictor table goes and has always gone, more or less. The other 0.3mm that got Porsche into 28,9mm is the actual BoP adjustment, along with the 35kg weight break

But that is exactly my point! Perhaps the table needs to be reviewed. IF the original table (and the one that is part of the "rules") was updated or corrected, then perhaps a 35kg weight break wouldn't be needed.
One can restrict hp , but you cant restrict torque, so by using a restriction on air, you are always giving the bigger engine a torque advantage.
That's why we will shortly see a 7L engine in GTE.

[kyoung]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

That's why we will shortly see a 7L engine in GTE.

Who the hell knows what we are going to see, they already had rules that killed the 7 liter with the 5.5 max displacement rule which is also BS because the large displacement cars are running half the valves. Now they are going to let the Viper run with larger displacement and a smaller restrictor. I have given up on following these race series with any amount of credence because they have become/are becoming pure soap opera just like GT3. There was an article about Bentley wanting to possibly run a GTE car; what an incredible joke that will be I thought, a 5500lb joke. Then I remembered, oh yeah, they run a 3 series BMW and it beats Ferraris so I guess it makes sense. It’s kind of ironic that the less you know about the inner workings of racing the easier it is to enjoy. When it comes to BoP, ignorance truly is bliss.

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

But that is exactly my point! Perhaps the table needs to be reviewed. IF the original table (and the one that is part of the "rules") was updated or corrected, then perhaps a 35kg weight break wouldn't be needed.
One can restrict hp , but you cant restrict torque, so by using a restriction on air, you are always giving the bigger engine a torque advantage.
That's why we will shortly see a 7L engine in GTE.

if power output decreases, the torque decreases too.... you need to consider also that a larger engine has a shorter revlimit, so the thing is pretty balanced. Ex. (f458 GT engine: 520Nm and more of torque, with a revlimit between 6500 and 7000rpm; corvette engine: more than 700Nm of torque but a revlimit lower than 6000rpm).

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by kyoung

It’s kind of ironic that the less you know about the inner workings of racing the easier it is to enjoy. When it comes to BoP, ignorance truly is bliss.

I must agree... for example, I don't know anything about the specs they use in SCCA World Challenge (expect whenever Creamer and Fish happen to mention some adjustments on air) nor do I care to know but it makes the races more enjoyable watch.

I guess GT3 would be somewhat "fun" too if I knew absolutely nothing about the ludicrous lottery-rape-artificiality-lobbying-politics show that goes on backstage

[Spyderman]

@alexkiller8 I'm no engineer, nor am I an expert, but don't those figures that you provided for the Ferrari add up to between 474 hp (at 6500rpm) and 531hp at 7000RPM?

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

@alexkiller8 I'm no engineer, nor am I an expert, but don't those figures that you provided for the Ferrari add up to between 474 hp (at 6500rpm) and 531hp at 7000RPM?

i guess that these calculation has been done by you... officially the restricted F142 engine used in 458 GT has a power peak around 6250rpm, so this may let think that the revlimit is closer to 6500 than 7000. This is true, i agree, but if AF Corse or some other team want to gain more power to have a best top speed at le mans during qualifying session, then the team will use some map that will let them have some hp more, indirectly rising the revlimit (burning more fuel). Rising the revlimit, you gain more power (i don't know how much) but there isn't so high gain of torque.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

i guess that these calculation has been done by you... officially the restricted F142 engine used in 458 GT has a power peak around 6250rpm, so this may let think that the revlimit is closer to 6500 than 7000. This is true, i agree, but if AF Corse or some other team want to gain more power to have a best top speed at le mans during qualifying session, then the team will use some map that will let them have some hp more, indirectly rising the revlimit (burning more fuel). Rising the revlimit, you gain more power (i don't know how much) but there isn't so high gain of torque.

Well, the calculations were in fact done by me, but I can assure you that I had no part in coming up with the formula to work out hp based on Torque and RPM numbers.
Let me also say that with a mandatory air-restrictor, the Porsche generates 460 hp (338 kW)
Assuming that the 6 cylinder has a 8000 RPM peak then that equates to 409Nm of Torque

[alexkiller8]

sincerly i'm tired of people that keep on saying that the porsche engine is not powerfull like the others... my answer is: i don't f*ckin care, porsche may start to develope a better racing engine like ferrari and corvette did during years! ferrari, porsche and bmw can't receive weight ballast because porsche isn't able to build a performant 2012 spec 997 that is already shamefully adavantaged by bop! why if other cars are too much strong, must to be penalized while porsche is always helped? at example, during sebring race, the 997 shown to have the best fuel economy between gte cars, well do you want penalize ferrari because is too much competitive? ok but to balance give a fuel tank ok 80L to porsche.
(I think the same of aston martin vantage too).

[Spyderman]

I see. So when we discuss actual numbers, your argument is that you don't care?. OK. No point in further discussion.

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I see. So when we discuss actual numbers, your argument is that you don't care?. OK. No point in further discussion.

i don't care the meaning is that the porsche can't hide behind their boxer engine, can't be used as justification to obtain all that help from bop!
i instead think that when all these truth come to surface, is some porsche fanboy that prefer to disappear... (i'm not talking about you).

[Spyderman]

Please study the BoP. Porsche have the smallest restrictors for a 4.0L engine.
Yes, they have had a weight break, but they have not had increased fuel tanks, nor have they had rear wing height breaks.
Is Porsche so threatening that when they receive a little help to race against a newer and more powerful car you all go berserk? Judging from your reaction,(and others) they obviously are.

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Please study the BoP. Porsche have the smallest restrictors for a 4.0L engine.
Yes, they have had a weight break, but they have not had increased fuel tanks, nor have they had rear wing height breaks.
Is Porsche so threatening that when they receive a little help to race against a newer and more powerful car you all go berserk? Judging from your reaction,(and others) they obviously are.

ok after this, is clear that our respective point of view is irreconcilable.
For me the solution is simple, GTE cars have a min. weight of 1245kg? well no weight break for none. The car is not competitive? maybe is time that the manufacter will focus to do a better product then.

[Spyderman]

It is coming.

[morningview66]

Why are we having a GTE/GT2 Bop discussion in the VLN thread, they dont even run GTE/GT2s anymore.

But if Porsche are going to make a new GTE/GT2 they should go about making a new GT3 class car aswell...

[Napolis]

Hey

We'll be there. Last race was going well (5TH OA) until one of the last Ferrari Parts we still have the crap chassis casting broke.

We're repairing the chassis and re engineering it so it will be a lot stronger.

Our KERS system is starting to work well and if we can cool our battery pack a bit more it will be interesting.

We have improved our race lap time from last year (9 to 8:30) but are still 15 seconds off the top cars. We've asked for a better BOP and remain hopefull.

Running a one car team against the Factories with multi car teams is hard.

Very sad that no Ferrari's will be at the 24 but given how they performed at VLN 3 I'm not surprised.

The McLaren's are fast but when they lose it they LOSE it and a lot have crashed.

We will do our best and have a good time.

If any of you are there say Hello!

[AndrewF31]

Originally Posted by Napolis

Hey

We'll be there. Last race was going well (5TH OA) until one of the last Ferrari Parts we still have the crap chassis casting broke.

We're repairing the chassis and re engineering it so it will be a lot stronger.

Our KERS system is starting to work well and if we can cool our battery pack a bit more it will be interesting.

We have improved our race lap time from last year (9 to 8:30) but are still 15 seconds off the top cars. We've asked for a better BOP and remain hopefull.

Running a one car team against the Factories with multi car teams is hard.

Very sad that no Ferrari's will be at the 24 but given how they performed at VLN 3 I'm not surprised.

The McLaren's are fast but when they lose it they LOSE it and a lot have crashed.

We will do our best and have a good time.

If any of you are there say Hello!

Good luck Napolis!

[Ultimo]

Originally Posted by morningview66

Why are we having a GTE/GT2 Bop discussion in the VLN thread, they dont even run GTE/GT2s anymore.

But if Porsche are going to make a new GTE/GT2 they should go about making a new GT3 class car aswell...

Every thread is a BoP thread. It's like Godwin's Law about Nazis; except on this forum every discussion does not boil down to Nazis being mentioned, rather BoP.

[Babapapa]

Come on! It' a race in Germany!

[Nick6]

Originally Posted by morningview66

Why are we having a GTE/GT2 Bop discussion in the VLN thread, they dont even run GTE/GT2s anymore.

But if Porsche are going to make a new GTE/GT2 they should go about making a new GT3 class car aswell...

Ugh... they never did. All the GT2 cars run in either SP6,SP7 or SP8.

p.s. A few RSR's are entered in SP7 this year.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Ultimo

Every thread is a BoP thread. It's like Godwin's Law about Nazis; except on this forum every discussion does not boil down to Nazis being mentioned, rather BoP.

We could call that Goodwin's law in honor of a certain DSC editor