Audi LMP1 Discussion

[Chuliandred]

Originally Posted by bobec

Yes, but the energy allocation regulations still favor Porsche and the other petrol cars. It will just be by a little bit less (I actually remember the Audi allocation getting reduced in March).

If such small changes make a difference, what would happen if energy allocation was equal?

Back than the allocation was changed due to different energy density levels of the fuel provided for one year and the other.

[GasperG]

in 2014 2MJ diesel and 6MJ petrol both had ~139 MJ fuel energy
in 2015 4MJ diesel had 2.3% less fuel energy than 8MJ petrol
in 2016 4MJ diesel and 8MJ petrol will both have ~135 MJ fuel energy

I think this just shows how much more advanced Audi aero is in 2015, when competition adjusts we will still see some competitive racing in 2016.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by Chuliandred

Back than the allocation was changed due to different energy density levels of the fuel provided for one year and the other.

Well they can control for the density of the fuel with the fuel flow. The net result was less energy per lap.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I don't want to troll the Audi thread, but if the tables were turned, you would be crying about the injustice of it all like Calimero.
It is a large hit to Porsche and it will effect the racing and the championship.

For one thing i always were against this logic... while many in this forum were hugely in favour... which resulted in the present 'red square' since long in my ID corner ( unjust and undeserved).

For another this present EoT is not as larger than previous that hit Audi in previous cuts (IIRC)... but don't worry nothing is set in stone, what is easily given is easily taken away, there is no scientific logic in any of this and never was, only large prejudices against diesel fuel tech... more against fuel than the tech (better said compression ignition, because soon there could be petrol compression ignition). This are the rules that the public asked for out of prejudice despair(never a good adviser)!...

Now the train has left the station, and if the FIA-ACO bodies want any kind of 'fairness aura' in their 'balancing of performances policy', they will continue to play this game indefinitely... now favouring one side perceived to be slower and penalizing the faster, completely reversing the trend if what was perceived to be slower now is faster...

To me there is hardly anything to discuss now... i tried a scientific approach( one where fuel rules never change.,), used a little aggressive language, and it seems to have offended a lot of ppl that hit in reaction and 'penalized me'(similar game)... so i can't see any reason ever in the foreseeable future to "crying about the injustice of it all like Calimero" ( been there done that)

[hcl123]

For clarification...a scientific approach were fuel rules never change (at least for years)... can only be possible under the current rule logic if the FIA-ACO enforce/inspect what fuels teams are pouring into fuel tanks... and so there will NO CORRECTIVE FACTORS (take it or leave it in your fuel choice which is open to all, more so because the efficiency of an engine is not determined by the fuel itself but by the manufacturer engineering power, so its stupid to penalize the fuel for this... even more so because 2 teams on the same fuel can be apart by miles due to engineering not fuel)...

*Balancing of Performances*... or better said 'incentives', because the first is 'contra-natura' (what all teams try to realize is be more performant than the others, so trying to balance that is like swimming against a current )... could be given in the *weight of the cars*(already prepared for balast) an *hybrid power incentives*...

[chernaudi]

Thing is that if Audi have done as well as they have this year so far with a slight power deficit, imagine how well they might be able to do now that the MJ ratings per LM lap are now equal.

Audi though have had the better car all year long so far, and their advantage is with aero and suspension. Giving them theoretically the same power as everyone else will just make their car that much faster.

Thing is will Porsche and Toyota pull the trigger on making some substantial aero and chassis changes to match what Audi have have done, considering that the current formula is good for only one more year unless the 2017 changes are minor.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Thing is that if Audi have done as well as they have this year so far with a slight power deficit, imagine how well they might be able to do now that the MJ ratings per LM lap are now equal.

This done well is not much due to engine but due to a different tune up and **drivers** ... most probably better engine exhaust scavenging, better aeros and gear ratios, making the sluggish sprint versions a consistent high performer (yet if not for drivers they could have lost easily the first 2 races)

Funny enough where they have a power deficit is where they gained the double compared with last season, they have a clear power deficit in the Hybrid Power that has much more influence in the overall performance than the rules give credit for. More so because in this field not all electric motors are the same... Porsche proves it-> too much advantage to be only due to the amount of energy allowed.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Audi though have had the better car all year long so far, and their advantage is with aero and suspension. Giving them theoretically the same power as everyone else will just make their car that much faster.

IMHO Audi has arguably the best car only in the sense they run with the highest downforce bias of then all... nothing comes close in this department because diesel torque motorization is the great enabler (in LM they struggled). Though aeros has improved a lot, and suspension is very good, i still think in this department Porsche is clearly better(a car tuned for straight speed that has the best 'tire grip' of then all).

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Thing is will Porsche and Toyota pull the trigger on making some substantial aero and chassis changes to match what Audi have have done, considering that the current formula is good for only one more year unless the 2017 changes are minor.

Toyota id clearly now behind... principal handicap IMHO is engine, which last year was hailed has the holy grail... funny!

In spite of the EoT nothing will change for 2015, the long LM where reliability could be an issue by running 24h in qually like fuel flows, Porsche already has 2.5 to 3% of reserve considering the qually times and race times (where noticeably in LM they gained time in refuelling-> no need to fill the fuel tank all the way up). And OTOH 0.6% more fuel for diesel will i suspect will not make a difference at all. So where the competion could be closer to Porsche is in qually times( now the Porsche best race pace will be more identical to qualy)

Definitely Audi has not an advantage in aeros, is only tuned with a different bias favouring it in certain circuits... thats all.

For 2016 and 2017... nothing is set in stone... the 'modus operandi' so far has been the reserved right to make any arbitrary emendation whenever the decision body feels like. So is highly premature to say anything, though performance should augment a little for everybody in relative terms it will be slowed down by fuel flows (always counterbalanced in measures by meddling with fuel flows-> FIA-ACO doesn't know anything else -> like more ballast weight for the fastest, which would be incredibly more fair and effective in balancing performances).

[chernaudi]

Does anyone know about what is counted in the 5 engine per year rule in the tech regs? Does it count whole engines, engine blocks, or something else in between?

If it's engine blocks or blocks/heads, then as long as the cylinder liners aren't damaged, I can't see why Audi would have much problem running one of the older engines if it's allowed to be rebuilt as long as the block is retained. If not, they might have to take the penalty that the ACO proposed for using more than the allotted engines, which with the EOT/BOP shift, might not be as bad a penalty as first thought.

Also, any news or rumors about Audi heading into the coming weeks?

[chernaudi]

DSC have a recently published article about the Audi "Mission Control Center" that they had erected at the Nurburgring test, and how big it would be even with only a maximum of approx. 65 people per 2 car team.

Also shows what it's like for a factory team-sized effort of mechanics and engineers to work on a LMP1 team, as these cars are arguably more complex than anything vehicle out there outside of military jet aircraft:

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2015/0...n-control.html

[joeb]

I wish I had their coffee bar!

[chernaudi]

Found this on the Sport Audi facebook page:

"New Audi R18 quattro e-tron may soon for the test? The second half of the season begins next week with the Germany premiere of the endurance World Championship. Time about to worry what awaits us in 2016.

We reported sports after the 24 h of Le Mans (#LM24) about the plans by Audi. Well it could be too soon as far as the first parts of the new cars are tested. So in an accident not directly, the new vehicle is broken and the R & D time was free, experts expect from only the old R18 with new parts to see.

Audi wants next year with the highest hybrid class, but there are currently problems with the batteries. The new batteries go up at the moment still too fast in smoke in the FIA crash test and are thus not yet ready. But until the start of the season 2016 respectively until the prologues in Paul Ricard, the developers have plenty of time.

We are looking forward to when we get the first pictures of the 2016er LMP1s to face. Audi to take some test drives in Aragon with new FP6 parts possibly soon, only it is again difficult from there to get pictures."

[Giba]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Found this on the Sport Audi facebook page:

"New Audi R18 quattro e-tron may soon for the test? The second half of the season begins next week with the Germany premiere of the endurance World Championship. Time about to worry what awaits us in 2016.

We reported sports after the 24 h of Le Mans (#LM24) about the plans by Audi. Well it could be too soon as far as the first parts of the new cars are tested. So in an accident not directly, the new vehicle is broken and the R & D time was free, experts expect from only the old R18 with new parts to see.

Audi wants next year with the highest hybrid class, but there are currently problems with the batteries. The new batteries go up at the moment still too fast in smoke in the FIA crash test and are thus not yet ready. But until the start of the season 2016 respectively until the prologues in Paul Ricard, the developers have plenty of time.

We are looking forward to when we get the first pictures of the 2016er LMP1s to face. Audi to take some test drives in Aragon with new FP6 parts possibly soon, only it is again difficult from there to get pictures."

Going to the highest energy class seems a bit optimistic I feel for next year, but if they are changing to batteries then they could run in 6MJ and hopefully still be reliable and close to the minimum weight

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The new batteries go up at the moment still too fast in smoke in the FIA crash test and are thus not yet ready.

It seems a lots of people have difficulty working with Lithium Ion batteries and their propensity to burn...Tesla, Boeing, for example.

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

It seems a lots of people have difficulty working with Lithium Ion batteries and their propensity to burn...Tesla, Boeing, for example.

LiIon wants to burn.... Though, thankfully, they are actually pretty safe and stable.

Unless they encounter a high heat/high vibration environment. Then, they like to fail. One could say that endurance racing, is a high heat, high vibration environment.

Porsche is replacing battery packs regularly. While expensive, it's the only way to prevent a conflagration.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

LiIon wants to burn.... Though, thankfully, they are actually pretty safe and stable.

Unless they encounter a high heat/high vibration environment. Then, they like to fail. One could say that endurance racing, is a high heat, high vibration environment.

Porsche is replacing battery packs regularly. While expensive, it's the only way to prevent a conflagration.

Sounds like a solution is needed like was provided for video cameras that are connected to vibration-resistant mountings.

Maybe, the same needs to be done for these batteries? Floating in a protective bubble like atmosphere as if in a water bed with baffles? Vibration and fire resistant in one package?

[MoMedic9019]

Originally Posted by CyberMotor

Sounds like a solution is needed like was provided for video cameras that are connected to vibration-resistant mountings.

Maybe, the same needs to be done for these batteries? Floating in a protective bubble like atmosphere as if in a water bed with baffles? Vibration and fire resistant in one package?

I'm sure that some sort of solution has been engineered already.

[chernaudi]

Something has been engineered or will be very soon I'm betting. After all, it seems that Audi have their R&D team running at full speed as the 2016 car is due to start serious testing fairly soon.

I don't know what Audi will be doing at Magny Cours at the beginning of Sept (the test that Toyota had scheduled but dropped out of due to focusing on their 2016 car--Audi picked up those days for their own test), but I do have is confirmed by a source with friends at Joest Racing that for sure some iteration the 2016 car should start testing in Oct at Aragon.

[Articus]

I can sense that losing to Porsche at Le Mans is not being taken lightly...at all. To jump to 8MJ class would suggest that...

[TF110]

Good luck with that. Theyll need some super lightweight batteries if theyre engine is still 'heavy'.

[Artur]

If Audi jumps to 8MJ(I'm not counting on it), I think they will massively improve again, maybe even more than this year(+5s). If ACO/FIA don't slow them down(I hope they don't), then I'm betting on some jaw dropping laptimes

[TF110]

With -10mj per lap at LM next year theyll need to find a way to recover that loss and more. The jump to 8mj from 4mj means a reduction in fuel and power. From 135.4mj/lap +4mj hybrid to 126.3mj/lap +8mj hybrid. Thats before the -10mj drop. So its actually down to 116.3mj/lap +8mj hybrid. Thats a decrease of 10.8% in total power.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Considering Audi's typically conservative approach, I don't seem them making the big jump to 8MJ next year. Now, if the new battery-based ERS architecture allows them to make this jump without compromising weight too much, then why not ?

[Articus]

Dr. Ullrich? What a series of unfortunate events...

[chernaudi]

I don't see where what happened in DTM (Audi Sport fined $220K, Schinder banned from Moscow rounds, Ullrich banned from direct pit access/direct radio access without DTM official's consent until the end of the season, and Audi losing points gained in race 2 at the Red Bull Ring) has to do with the WEC, seeing as how the FIA had no or at least didn't exercise jurisdiction on that call, and the DTM/DMSB probation only pertains to the DTM series. WEC should be business as usual for Dr. Ullrich until the end of the season, and probably when he retires from Audi.

Granted, the guy can't man that post forever, and if someone at Audi or Audi Sport want to leverage an early retirement. IMO, when DTM kinda wants to fashion itself as German NASCAR, they were sort of asking for it when M-B decided to play team orders.

Nevertheless, as far as Audi Sport, Dr. Ullrich, Schinder and the DTM officials and DMSB goes, no appeals have been filed, Ullrich and Schinder copped the pleas, and it's case closed, unless something happened that I don't know about.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Granted, the guy can't man that post forever, and if someone at Audi or Audi Sport want to leverage an early retirement. IMO, when DTM kinda wants to fashion itself as German NASCAR, they were sort of asking for it when M-B decided to play team orders.

Nevertheless, as far as Audi Sport, Dr. Ullrich, Schinder and the DTM officials and DMSB goes, no appeals have been filed, Ullrich and Schinder copped the pleas, and it's case closed, unless something happened that I don't know about.

I still can't find any of the evidence from that incident. Is a radio call, which might have not been intended as a radio call, all the evidence here? Seeing it took them so long to make their decision, my guess is they didn't find anything in the telemetry.

When I watch the video of the incident, I don't see the Audi doing anything unusual. It's the Mercedes in the middle that seems to brake very early, as if he is trying to mess with the Audi and protect the Mercedes in front. It just got out of hand. I think it's almost impossible to plan such a billiards-style move. It was just a lucky/unlucky incident in my opinion.