MS losing his edge(?)

[Damon]

Well he's signed on till the end of 2006 so he must still want something. It wouldn't make the guy look to great now if he retires before then because he's losing. Although I can't see him lasting past 2004 if he has another season like this.

[JohnSSC]

Originally posted by senna12
Yeah, getting consistently beat is murder on a carefully crafted reputation.

Carefully crafted reputation? Really? I guess the 5 WDCs are just a PR thing and really not all that meaningful.

Even Fangio did not win all the time.

:confused:

[Bononi]

Well, just a thought from a non-TGF fan.

A driver, who built a team around him, struggled to make it dominant and has all records in his pocket, won't be demolished at once.
First, who has lost the edge, is Ferrari. We can have fun seeing TGF being lapped in 8th position, but hey, the driver is there, fighting. I wouldn't respect a driver that park his car in the gravel trap because he feels he doesn't deserves the position other than the lead.
I remember the commentator saying "...and now he will be lapped by Alonso... he certainly forgot how to do it, the blue flag showed to him..." and he gracefully cleared the way to Alonso, he said "No, he's a true champion, a great racer, and that means he knows what means to be leading a race".
If TGF loses this WDC, it will only mean to him, like other times, that he has to fight harder and get to edge again. If he fails, he has nothing to prove, because time comes to everyone, and he's just another human, like us.

[Glen]

Originally posted by Bononi
First, who has lost the edge, is Ferrari.

whilst that is obviously true, there is also the other factor of Schumacher himself having a couple of poor races compared to Rubens - as has been said elsewhere, if Rubens hadn't had that suspension failure then Schumacher would have scored no points at all in Hungary. Other factors come into play - eg the madman at Silverstone and the dust at Hungary (penalising the early runners) but on balance I think you have to say that he is having a little dip at just the wrong point in the season. He made the best of a bad situation in Canada and he needs to do three more races at the same level; not at the level he is currently performing at.

[Knowlesy]

He has two great opportunities though: Suzuka (you can gaurantee a good showing there) and Monza (I expect the teams to be more or less equal, tyres shouldn't be as big a factor, although they could just swing it). I don't expect them to go well at Indy because of the slow speed corners - a Williams speciality.

Two out of three ain't bad though.

[pole2pole]

How things change, at the beginning of this season i thought that this would be another long boring championship with TGF finishing the trademark 30 to 40 secs ahead of the field in each race. Bridgestone is only but one of his problems i can think of 4 more they are Montoya,Kime,Alonso and Ralf. All These guys have now got cars in which they can fight with and what makes it even more interesting is that they are all bloody good drivers.Over the last couple of seasons the Schumacher/Ferrari set up has had a very easy time of it with all the rivil teams in a period of development and with himself having a car that was by far the best out there winning race after race and championship after championship. Even the hardest of Schumacher fans have to agree that he has had a very easy run of it. Dont get me wrong i think he is a great driver but he has always had an car advantage....but what happens when you take that car advantage away? I think that question has been anwered over the last few months.

[Knowlesy]

Well he only really had a consistent car advantage last year. In 2001 he had the best car overall but at some races it was a little outclassed and it was aided by the inconsistent form of everyone else. In 2000 it was almost as good as the McLaren but not quite. As for 1994 and 1995, well, he had nowhere near the best car!

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Yoong Montoya
The last time he faced pressure like this was 2000, and he handled it fine. If he could do it then, he can do it now can't he?

In a car that was equal best with the McLaren.The pressure that he faces at the moment seems to be from within the team and his own cockpit.This is more pressure than he faced in 2000.The last time he faced pressure like this imo, is the last race of the season 1997.

Originally posted by knowlesy
As for 1994 and 1995, well, he had nowhere near the best car!

Yer right

[Sato san]

the Benneton 1994 and 1995 cars were the best on the grid !

[Yoong Montoya]

Originally posted by Sato san
the Benneton 1994 and 1995 cars were the best on the grid !

I wouldn't say that the 1995 Benetton was the best car that year. When you consider how ill handling it was, even if it did have a Renault engine, then you would have to acknowledge that the Williams with the same Renault engine was the better car that year. The Benetton was second best though. No doubt about that.

In 1994, Williams struggled with their chassis in the first half of the year, much like they did this year, but once they had it sorted out, they were more or less equal with Benetton. But I would say the Benetton was the best car that year. It may not have had the best engine, but the aerodynamics made up for it, kinda like the Renault this year actually.

[ASCII Man]

Too late to say the same thing...
Damn you, Yoong!

[Knowlesy]

Well, I would say that the Benetton was best in terms of handling in 1994. The engine was a V8 so it was a little down on power. Fairly equal with the Williams. And look how Schueys team-mates struggled.

To say the 1995 Benetton was the best on the grid is very optimistic. Nasty handling. Although the engine was obviously the best. But the Willy had the same engine and by far and away the best chassis. Just poor reliability and a poor season from Damon let it down. Hockenheim, Nurburgring, Suzuka very embarrasing for us people who cheered Mr Hill on. And as for Williams' "strategies", well...........

Please don't tell me the Benettons were the class of the field because they weren't.

[Sato san]

They were Knowlesy !......so there !...lol

seriously though , the 1995 Wlliams was not the class of the field that year . The Benneton was a very nervous car indeed , but it was a very fast car and it was delevoped and set up 100% the way Michael likes a car to handle . They had the equal best engine with Williams , but the car done what Michael wanted it to . However ,slightly off topic , i still think Mansell would have managed to drag the Williams chassis round to winning him a 2nd World Championship had Frank had the sense to keep him on for a 1 year contract in 95

As for 1994 , Benneton clearly had the best chassis IMO , and even though it was down on power the Ford engine had much better drivabilty that the Renualt ever did .

[eclectic]

There is a simple answer. Reaction times.

Technical problems, tyres, sure, but......

To drive an F! car, I'm siure that you have to have fantastic reactions.

I'm an older driver who has held a competition licence for more than 20 years.

In my early years, rapid reactions made up for inexperience.

Later, slower reactions were compensated for by more experience.

Sooner or later, performance drops off.

Although I'm sure F1 drivers are checked regularly for their reaction times, especially before renewing a contract, M S is getting old by F1 driver's standards.

This drop off is not necessarily on a constant slide, but it gets us all in the end, even if our name is Schumacher.

[Smokey 6 litre]

i think TGF has forgoten how to fight, or is simply not used to it, or MAYBE he knows he found his match(s)and has given up all hope and is resigned to failure until he gets a car which is far better than anyone elses, well, i hope so.

[Dino IV]

If it was only Ferrari 'under' performing, TGF would still be ahead of Rubens.
If it was only Michelin 'extra' perfoming, TGF would still be ahead of Rubens.
The truth is, it has to do with TGF himself and his driving style.

Three things hint at a problem in this area:
Firstly the obvious: Rubens is faster than TGF consistently.
Second the can-of-worms: At Monaco the FIA remembers Ferrari that all same-compound tires should be used, like everyone else.
Thirdly the effect: A Sauber chief engineer mentioned at the 'Ring that their hardest Bridgestone tyre was softer by miles than Ferrari's softest.

So before Monaco TGF's performances were mostly strong to dominant, he must have run tires which made that possible. His style is far from smooth and pretty rough and 'eats' tires especially at the rear. With different compounds he could run softer at the front, harder at the rear and finish his stints in good pace.

But now he has to run the same hardness at the front which he needs at the rear. And his pace is suffering from that. He can not run well at the front with the hardness he needs at the rear. Rubens is less affected as he has a very round, smooth driving style and can run softer tires all around much easier than TGF.

Ferrari in 2000 and 2001 was already known for 'eating' tires. This problem dissappeared somehow .. and now we know why, because they started running different compounds front and rear.

Now it's back to haunt them, and especially TGF, and you can see Heidfeld in the Sauber being able to run much softer tires and keep his pace within a few tenths per lap in the race.

[Damon]

Interesting theory that, it seems to hold up as well.

[eclectic]

Why is Michael Shumacher referred to as TGF? Translation please!

[corkholio]

Originally posted by Damon
Interesting theory that, it seems to hold up as well.

Except it doesn't explain qualifying.

[Damon]

Originally posted by eclectic
Why is Michael Shumacher referred to as TGF? Translation please!

'That German Fellow' is the official meaning although for the last letter you can use your imagination . It was created a few years ago by Liz so that us lazy forum dwellers need only write three letters whenever we refer to him.

corkholio, Ferrare have been relatively strong in qualifying (Hunagary aside).

[Andrew2001]

Schumacher's winning in 2001 was like Mika's in 1998, and Mika in 2000 was a very close call with MS, I'd call it a dead heat, they were so close on performance, but Mika's car gave up when it really just shouldn't have.
If Mika, Jacques, Fischella and Kimi had, or go on to have, competitive front running cars for the vast majority of their careers, there is no reason why they can't(or could have) rack up close to 30-40-50 GP wins each, and championships, Mika never had a great car (until towards the end of his career, and what did he do with it: 20 wins 28 poles and 2 championships) but still go results, MS always had a good car, except 1996, so he was always able to get better results.
Where I personally conceed MS having his advantage, his is mental approach, his adaptability, but lap for lap pace, if Mika or Jacques ever raced him in the same car, you have to wonder just how close or thrilling it could have been : you know, when Senna and Prost raced head to head, or Mansell and Piquet, but then, MS never did allow a good driver to get along side him in "his" team...Of course, Enzo would have loved the prospect, but we will never know...Tribute to how Ferrari is run today..


My point, is what can you do if your car breaks down after you lead a race from the start?
My second point, if your car never fails, and is competitive from day 1, to day 100000, then is there any reason why you can't win everything, or just about everything?

****maker always freely acknowledged, and admitted, that his closest rival was Mika Hakkinen, Mika was the only one who could get close to MS, and he did beat him twice, no one else did that in close competition stakes.

[freud]

Great post, DinoIV.

Like I've always said, TGF needs the best car to win a title. He had the best car in 2000, 2001 and 2002. He had the best car till Monaco... and he'll again have the best car for the final three races. Whoever wrote the script for 2003 did a damn good job...

Enjoy the final three races! I hope the most deserving guy wins the title... Shalom/Peace/Salam.

[Speed]

Freud, nice to see you again...

[Bononi]

Yes, good to see freud back, and Dino IV too...

[Yoong Montoya]

Originally posted by Sato san
They were Knowlesy !......so there !...lol

seriously though , the 1995 Wlliams was not the class of the field that year . The Benneton was a very nervous car indeed , but it was a very fast car and it was delevoped and set up 100% the way Michael likes a car to handle . They had the equal best engine with Williams , but the car done what Michael wanted it to . However ,slightly off topic , i still think Mansell would have managed to drag the Williams chassis round to winning him a 2nd World Championship had Frank had the sense to keep him on for a 1 year contract in 95

As for 1994 , Benneton clearly had the best chassis IMO , and even though it was down on power the Ford engine had much better drivabilty that the Renualt ever did .

Well, sato san, you did basically admit that the Williams was better than the Benetton in 1995. It WAS Michael's talent that won him the title that year, no matter which way you look at it. I think it was after he clinched the 1995 WDC that Schumacher said that if Senna had been in the Williams he would have been driving rings around him, but I'm not too sure:confused:

I agree with you on 1994 though. The chassis definitely made up for the lack in engine power. So I would put it ahead of the Williams that year.