The future of S2000?

[JMeissner]

Lets have a thread of its own for this.

[JMeissner]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Not in the BTCC. BMW aren't really competitive in the UK!
.

And that could not be because of the team running the cars? Look at STCC, WTCC and DTC...

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

How could that be the case when the BTCC gets 20+ S2000 cars?

The STCC also get big grids, as do DTC. But it is still very expensive for what type of cars you get. It works now, but it won't work for ever, just as Super Touring. Instead of killing Super Touring, proper changes should have been made to adjust the cost with standad parts. Instead of forming a new set of rules that are wrong from the base.

[JMeissner]

I think it's quite easy to see that the S2000 rules are wrong from the start.

Just compare it to Super Touring. For sure, those rules had its errors as well as it went under. But, S2000 is quite fresh, and already there are tons of dispensations letft and right, plus a lot of penalty weight being used.

The cars cost a fortune to run and the power to grip level is far too low.

Something needs to be done.

[racer69]

Half the problem is that the rules aren't being followed.

Like the rubbish about all the concessions Seat have been given with the Leon in the last two years. The latest one (the 13:1 compression ratio engine, when the rules state you must use 11:1) is a farce, as is the likes of the rule breaks Chevrolet have had......

If the rules are written they might as well be followed.

Originally Posted by JMeissner

The STCC also get big grids, as do DTC. But it is still very expensive for what type of cars you get. It works now, but it won't work for ever, just as Super Touring. Instead of killing Super Touring, proper changes should have been made to adjust the cost with standad parts. Instead of forming a new set of rules that are wrong from the base.

You could apply that to any set of rules though, imagine if they'd done that with Group A, instead of going to towards the FWD small engine (although successful) route.

[JMeissner]

For sure, it is a problem that they make the silly dispensations.

On the other hand, in Super Touring no such dispensations were even needed. The racing was very close, unlike Group A.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

On the other hand, in Super Touring no such dispensations were even needed.

That's partly because the rules were so open in the first place. When cylinder head design is free there's no need for valve sizes and compression ratios dispensations.

Originally Posted by JMeissner

It works now, but it won't work for ever, just as Super Touring.

I don't doubt that a at some point in the future the bubble will burst and S2000 will be consigned to history. Few formulae survive beyond 5-10 years without a major re-write of the technical regs. That's especially true of any multi-make manufacturer-led series, and more so with one based on marketing road cars.

As with all such series, at some point the cars will become too fast, too expensive, or both and organisers will have no option but to re-write the rules. We've seen it with Group B rallying, Group C sportscars, SuperTouring, even F1.


Change is inevitable, it's not a question of "if" it's a question of "when". If the question is "was S2000 the right choice in the first place", well that's another matter entirely.

[Sodemo]

How much cheaper is S2000 compared to Super Touring, or DTM?

I remember reading some time ago that a Super Touring 1999 Nissan cost around £260,000.

I read somewhere else that a S2000 car costs around £80,000 to £100,000.

Please correct me if my figures are wrong.

[kmchow]

S2000 was originally supposed to be cheaper than ST due to the set/standized requirements?

But I'm hearing from posters that since some manufacturers aren't competitive with the set standard, that's deviating from it. So deviation or exemptions is what's increasing S2000 cost? But whether you're deviating or not, are manufacturers spending that much more when they do get an exemption?

[roachy101]

i think S2000 will thrive for a few more years until they find some sort of new type of class

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by redshoes

I don't doubt that a at some point in the future the bubble will burst and S2000 will be consigned to history. Few formulae survive beyond 5-10 years without a major re-write of the technical regs. That's especially true of any multi-make manufacturer-led series, and more so with one based on marketing road cars.

As with all such series, at some point the cars will become too fast, too expensive, or both and organisers will have no option but to re-write the rules. We've seen it with Group B rallying, Group C sportscars, SuperTouring, even F1.


Change is inevitable, it's not a question of "if" it's a question of "when". If the question is "was S2000 the right choice in the first place", well that's another matter entirely.

I agree

To change technical regulations at this moment is a bad idea because it would mean the end of touring car racing.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

How much cheaper is S2000 compared to Super Touring, or DTM?

I remember reading some time ago that a Super Touring 1999 Nissan cost around £260,000.

I read somewhere else that a S2000 car costs around £80,000 to £100,000.

Please correct me if my figures are wrong.

A BMW 320si costs around 200,000 Euro.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by FIRE

A BMW 320si costs around 200,000 Euro.

So thats about £120,000.

Still a lot of money for sure.

[Notso Swift]

So the future is strong, but it will die anyway?

IMHO the current is not as strong as the past and could be done better, but it is known and the future is not.

If a TC formula is too expensive for a private operator to do then it has missed its mark. Lets not see 1 factory team but 3 factory supported teams, 6 cars for 2.
The other option is a LOT more manufactures. Without them Touring Cars are limited, the problem is that manufactures have globalised so there is a limited pool of manufacturers who will take part at any one time, no manufacture is going to send 2 of its own brands out to fight each other and potentially damage both (Which IMO is why Toyota didn't use the Lexus brand with Williams)
Likewise motorsport is so expensive now that no one (BMW being the logical exception, although they are still limited) can afford to make concerned attacks on multiple World level championship at the same time. On this basis I don't think there is a major manufacture who is not involved officially in at least one World Championship formula (F1, WRC, WTCC, plus LM)
Costs should be such so that manufactures can compete in more than one program. This is not just S2000’s problem, indeed they have been the most active in trying to control costs because they are aware that it is only ever the poor cousin to the premier formula and it will only live while it can pick up the scraps of the other formula.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

If a TC formula is too expensive for a private operator to do then it has missed its mark.

Absolutly spot on. Any touring car formula should be based around the privateer to begin with. Manufacturer support/teams should be an added bonus to a formula, not fundamental to it's success.

[QUOTE=redshoes
If the question is "was S2000 the right choice in the first place", well that's another matter entirely.[/QUOTE]
I'm tempted to touch this, but will leave it for now

[JMeissner]

I think its quite clear that S2000 was wrong from the start.

It is almost as expensive as Super Touring which was the main reason for it to start with...

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

I think its quite clear that S2000 was wrong from the start.

It is almost as expensive as Super Touring which was the main reason for it to start with...

Well, each S2000 car costs around half what Super Touring cars cost at the end of their life, so im not sure thats a fair comment.

But without doubt, S2000 isn't cheap.

[JMeissner]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Well, each S2000 car costs around half what Super Touring cars cost at the end of their life, so im not sure thats a fair comment.

What do you base that on?

[racer69]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

I think its quite clear that S2000 was wrong from the start.

It is almost as expensive as Super Touring which was the main reason for it to start with...

The worrying part is that aren't the current S2000 rules a watered down version of what was originally announced back in 2001?

[FIRE]

Motorsport is expensive. I think budgets of F1 teams have almost doubled compared to 10 years ago.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by racer69

You could apply that to any set of rules though, imagine if they'd done that with Group A, instead of going to towards the FWD small engine (although successful) route.

What do you suggest? Mass racing of homogolation specials that would be larger than standard road cars?

Sorry, the Leon is a family car, checked on EURO NCAP's site - if it was around in ST days it would be allowed as there was no minimum size IIRC, just it hade to be a Euro NCAP small family car or bigger.

[redshoes]

ST minimum length was 4.2m, so the Leon would just qualify.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

If a TC formula is too expensive for a private operator to do then it has missed its mark.

Agreed. For me one of the big failing of the BTCC in the ST era was the way indie teams were forgotten about. It's all too easy to get blinded by 10 fully funded factory teams, only to find that when they leave there's no one to fill the gap.

The other option is a LOT more manufactures. Without them Touring Cars are limited, the problem is that manufactures have globalised so there is a limited pool of manufacturers who will take part at any one time

The chances of seeing lots of manufacturer backed teams racing in the same series are remote. We might see many different makes, but not works backed.

Maybe the next Touring Car re-birth, whenever it happens, needs to look at the way GT racing has gone recently. Cars still need manufacturer support for homologation but fully fledged manufacturer teams are not permitted. So far that approach seems to be working well.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Maybe the next Touring Car re-birth, whenever it happens, needs to look at the way GT racing has gone recently. Cars still need manufacturer support for homologation but fully fledged manufacturer teams are not permitted. So far that approach seems to be working well.

You mean FIA GT3?

[JMeissner]

Of course motorsport will always be expensive. But reducing the costs marginally with rules that are much worse is just silly.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by FIRE

You mean FIA GT3?

Yes, although I understand similar rules apply to GT4 and to a lesser extent GT1.