[Tech Issue] The Sound Of The V6 Turbo PU..

[Adam43]

Hybrid systems do improve fuel efficiency even if they have mass. That is shown here in F1, in WEC and in road cars. I thought we were past thinking they don't now.

I have no problem with F1 being irrelevant to road cars. However these changes, whether directly or indirectly bringing more relevance are also more interesting, produce cars that are harder to drive and, at least while everyone gets used to them, improve the racing. Unlike double points.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Actually, it clearly is economical. Hence lap times within .5s of previous years on 30% less fuel. I wish I could drive to work using 30% less fuel.

It also gives massively torquey engines, which are always more exciting, and may well provide better racing.

I think that driving to work using 30% less fuel is the idea ...

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Hybrid systems do improve fuel efficiency even if they have mass. That is shown here in F1, in WEC and in road cars. I thought we were past thinking they don't now.

I agree, but that makes the enforced introduction of well-regulated hybrid quite unnecessary.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

I agree, but that makes the enforced introduction of well-regulated hybrid quite unnecessary.

I disagree. The more technical genius aimed at hybrids the better. F1 is full of technical geniuses. The F1 hybrids already use techniques not used in road cars, (ERS) and hybrid road cars have been around for much longer...

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by JamesH

I disagree. The more technical genius aimed at hybrids the better. F1 is full of technical geniuses. The F1 hybrids already use techniques not used in road cars, (ERS) and hybrid road cars have been around for much longer...

For the sake of safety, relevance, cost-efficiency and fairness no other regulations than limits to the fuel-flow and fuel consumption would have been necessary. If hybrid power units are indeed (in the long run) superior to non-hybrid power units - as I think it is -, their introduction as well as severe restrictions are simply incomprehensible.

[luke g28]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

For the sake of safety, relevance, cost-efficiency and fairness no other regulations than limits to the fuel-flow and fuel consumption would have been necessary. If hybrid power units are indeed (in the long run) superior to non-hybrid power units - as I think it is -, their introduction as well as severe restrictions are simply incomprehensible.

They needed to be introduced as otherwise they were banned via regulation. Had the teams been allowed to use turbos last year they would have done.

The severe restrictions are a safety net for the manufacturers. Agreed it would be nicer to have less restriction so the tech can advance but how much further ahead would Mercedes be if instead of just refining for the last 2 years they were still adding more power..?

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

For the sake of safety, relevance, cost-efficiency and fairness no other regulations than limits to the fuel-flow and fuel consumption would have been necessary. If hybrid power units are indeed (in the long run) superior to non-hybrid power units - as I think it is -, their introduction as well as severe restrictions are simply incomprehensible.

Of course, with the fuel consumption limits currently in place, a hybrid power system is the only option if you want to win. So they probably could have just legislated that and would have got hybrids anyway.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Of course, with the fuel consumption limits currently in place, a hybrid power system is the only option if you want to win. So they probably could have just legislated that and would have got hybrids anyway.

Agreed, but I think just legislating the fuel consumption limit would have been a better way to go, and if somebody came up with some trick new concept to increase efficiency, we all benefit.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by miatanut

Agreed, but I think just legislating the fuel consumption limit would have been a better way to go, and if somebody came up with some trick new concept to increase efficiency, we all benefit.

Perfect!

[JamesH]

Good point, but perhaps too expensive to give completely free rein, and may end up with vastly different systems in the cars, and one particular system being head and shoulders above the rest...

Oh, hold on....

(I'm still an gas turbine + electric transmission fan)

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Good point, but perhaps too expensive to give completely free rein, and may end up with vastly different systems in the cars, and one particular system being head and shoulders above the rest...

Oh, hold on....

(I'm still an gas turbine + electric transmission fan)

Willing to bet it wouldn't be the current setup that emerged as dominant.

Incidentally, I agree with the turbine, not the hub mounted motors though.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by wnut

Willing to bet it wouldn't be the current setup that emerged as dominant.

Incidentally, I agree with the turbine, not the hub mounted motors though.

You could mount a single motor at the back and single at the front (4WD), to reduce unsprung weight. But you then need differentials and drive shafts which make the whole car heavier. But without an IC engine/gearbox you are light anyway. Swings and roundabouts. Depends how light you can make in hub motors?

What setup do you think would be dominant?

[wnut]

Originally Posted by JamesH

You could mount a single motor at the back and single at the front (4WD), to reduce unsprung weight. But you then need differentials and drive shafts which make the whole car heavier. But without an IC engine/gearbox you are light anyway. Swings and roundabouts. Depends how light you can make in hub motors?

What setup do you think would be dominant?

Hi James

I think you would need the drive shafts because of the unsprung weight, although the tracks are so smooth that it may be possible in F1.
There is an interesting 4wd system in the 918 Porsche which you have I'm sure seen, a link at the bottom of the post.

What would dominate? Talk about spoilt for choice, heaven knows what the correct solution would be.
Given open regulations, no power limit and no minimum weight with maximum fuel flow limit.
Low weight and maximum power would be your long term goals, and I think there may be a time period before new technology overtook the old.
Eventually; time to put up; I think a small gas turbine that I could run at full speed driving a free power turbine. (Could possibly run multiple turbojets with demand switching to split the load requirements.)
The output of the power turbine to run to a torque splitter between an electrical generator and a direct output to the wheels, much like the Toyota Prius’ system. The electrical system would be used essentially to absorb the excess power when not needed and to supplement the deficit in turbine output at full power and under acceleration, because we are trying to run a small turbine at high efficiency.
After this, there would be endless opportunities to develop the systems and structures, heat exchangers (Chrysler – recuperators) to conserve the heat energy, allowing water injection would increase the power output of the turbojet, developing more efficient generators, better lighter electric motors, power transmission systems – hub motors, better drive and KERS systems management and better electrical and energy storage systems – capacitors, flywheels?
There would be opportunities to further develop turbojet technologies with variable geometry compressors and turbine blades.
Some interesting current hybrid technologies, for those interested:
The Bladon gas turbine which was to be used in the Jaguar C-X7 project would be an ideal turbojet to run as the gas generator, the big trick here is the five stage compressor that makes the turbine both powerful and very efficient.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFnZJeHc-KY
Porsche 918 hybrid drive flywheel system has split the electric drive to the front wheels of the car with the power transmitted via drive shafts giving the car four wheel drive up to 127 mph.
Go to 7:25 mins
http://www.nbc.com/jay-lenos-garage/video/2015-porsche-918-spyder/n46037#i
McLaren P 1 still drives the electric motor through a transmission.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddU4tcGIF6k
History - Chrysler turbine car.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car
“The power turbine was connected, without a torque converter, through a gear reduction unit to an only moderately modified TorqueFliteautomatic transmission. The flow of the combustion gases between the gas generator and free power turbine provided the same functionality as a torque converter but without using a conventional liquid medium. Twin rotating recuperators transferred exhaust heat to the inlet air, greatly improving fuel economy. Varying stator blades prevented excessive top end speeds, and provided engine braking on deceleration.”

How that look to you?

Everyone else please feel free to pile on! Computer about to melt - again?

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by luke g28

They needed to be introduced as otherwise they were banned via regulation. Had the teams been allowed to use turbos last year they would have done.

The severe restrictions are a safety net for the manufacturers. Agreed it would be nicer to have less restriction so the tech can advance but how much further ahead would Mercedes be if instead of just refining for the last 2 years they were still adding more power..?

If free regulations would have made teams to use hybrid, an enforced introduction would have been unnecessary.

The true reason why Mercedes-Benz are well ahead of their rivals, is yet to be unraveled. It is known that Renault are still having troubles with their hybrid systems, but so far the packaging of the internal combustion engine seems the main advantage Mercedes-Benz have over the other engine manufacturers. No much is said about the hybrid systems.

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

If free regulations would have made teams to use hybrid, an enforced introduction would have been unnecessary.

The true reason why Mercedes-Benz are well ahead of their rivals, is yet to be unraveled. It is known that Renault are still having troubles with their hybrid systems, but so far the packaging of the internal combustion engine seems the main advantage Mercedes-Benz have over the other engine manufacturers. No much is said about the hybrid systems.

Surely the separation of turbine and compressor is the big advantage? Just that one innovation has knock on effects over the entire power train.

(Not saying there are not other things at work, but that seems a really big gain to me)

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by wnut

Hi James

I think you would need the drive shafts because of the unsprung weight, although the tracks are so smooth that it may be possible in F1.
There is an interesting 4wd system in the 918 Porsche which you have I'm sure seen, a link at the bottom of the post.

What would dominate? Talk about spoilt for choice, heaven knows what the correct solution would be.
Given open regulations, no power limit and no minimum weight with maximum fuel flow limit.
Low weight and maximum power would be your long term goals, and I think there may be a time period before new technology overtook the old.
Eventually; time to put up; I think a small gas turbine that I could run at full speed driving a free power turbine. (Could possibly run multiple turbojets with demand switching to split the load requirements.)
The output of the power turbine to run to a torque splitter between an electrical generator and a direct output to the wheels, much like the Toyota Prius’ system. The electrical system would be used essentially to absorb the excess power when not needed and to supplement the deficit in turbine output at full power and under acceleration, because we are trying to run a small turbine at high efficiency.
After this, there would be endless opportunities to develop the systems and structures, heat exchangers (Chrysler – recuperators) to conserve the heat energy, allowing water injection would increase the power output of the turbojet, developing more efficient generators, better lighter electric motors, power transmission systems – hub motors, better drive and KERS systems management and better electrical and energy storage systems – capacitors, flywheels?
There would be opportunities to further develop turbojet technologies with variable geometry compressors and turbine blades.
Some interesting current hybrid technologies, for those interested:
The Bladon gas turbine which was to be used in the Jaguar C-X7 project would be an ideal turbojet to run as the gas generator, the big trick here is the five stage compressor that makes the turbine both powerful and very efficient.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFnZJeHc-KY
Porsche 918 hybrid drive flywheel system has split the electric drive to the front wheels of the car with the power transmitted via drive shafts giving the car four wheel drive up to 127 mph.
Go to 7:25 mins
http://www.nbc.com/jay-lenos-garage/video/2015-porsche-918-spyder/n46037#i
McLaren P 1 still drives the electric motor through a transmission.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddU4tcGIF6k
History - Chrysler turbine car.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car
“The power turbine was connected, without a torque converter, through a gear reduction unit to an only moderately modified TorqueFliteautomatic transmission. The flow of the combustion gases between the gas generator and free power turbine provided the same functionality as a torque converter but without using a conventional liquid medium. Twin rotating recuperators transferred exhaust heat to the inlet air, greatly improving fuel economy. Varying stator blades prevented excessive top end speeds, and provided engine braking on deceleration.”

How that look to you?

Everyone else please feel free to pile on! Computer about to melt - again?

Thanks for the links - will take a while to get through them all!

I disagree about a direct connection from turbine to wheels. You need a massive reduction in RPM, plus a gearbox, and I think that would be too wasteful of energy.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by JamesH

Thanks for the links - will take a while to get through them all!

I disagree about a direct connection from turbine to wheels. You need a massive reduction in RPM, plus a gearbox, and I think that would be too wasteful of energy.

The unlimited hydros use a mechanical connection from the turbine to the prop shaft.

And the fans complain that the boats are too quiet, and the older, slower, less reliable piston boats are better.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by miatanut

The unlimited hydros use a mechanical connection from the turbine to the prop shaft.

And the fans complain that the boats are too quiet, and the older, slower, less reliable piston boats are better.

It is possible to drive a propeller off the turbojet's own turbine shaft, this however compromised the performance of the turbojet.
It is better to take a drive off a power turbine installed in the turbojet exhaust, this has no connection to the turbojet's turbine and compressor shaft, the turbojet is merely a gas generator for the power turbine, this is much more efficient as the turbojet's performance is not compromised by trying to turn the load under reduced power.

Both methods would have a mechanical drive shaft connected to the propeller!

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by wnut

It is possible to drive a propeller off the turbojet's own turbine shaft, this however compromised the performance of the turbojet.
It is better to take a drive off a power turbine installed in the turbojet exhaust, this has no connection to the turbojet's turbine and compressor shaft, the turbojet is merely a gas generator for the power turbine, this is much more efficient as the turbojet's performance is not compromised by trying to turn the load under reduced power.

Both methods would have a mechanical drive shaft connected to the propeller!

They use helicopter engines, which brings up a good point. Helicopter engines are reduced a lot more than the drive for a racing car's wheels would be. Presumably there is a worm gear somewhere in the system. If you use an exhaust to drive a turbine, you protect the turbine from shock but you would lose a lot of efficiency that way, kind of like an automatic transmission not in lockup mode. A racing car is a lot more demanding application because of the constant changes in speed in general, and more so going over bumps, so the turbine/electric concept makes more sense to me, but I think it all comes back to F1 would be a great place for people to experiment with this kind of stuff.

It could be the pinnacle of technology in addition to the pinnacle of driving.

[wnut]

Miatanut, you would have a turbojet that is used as a gas generator.
In its exhaust you have the power turbine that is driven by the hot gas exiting the turbojet, their shafts are completely separate, that is they can turn at different speeds, for instance you can run the turbojet with the power turbine locked and no drive going to the prop or water jet pump on the boat, this is the way it works in helicopters too.
When the whole aircraft or boat is switched off you can turn the propeller and power turbine without turning the turbine they are in no way connected.
All modern turboprop engines work this way, again the propeller is connected to the power turbine but not the turbojet mainshaft that drives a compressor off its turbine. The power turbine is only driven by the passage of hot gasses through its own blades!

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by wnut

Miatanut, you would have a turbojet that is used as a gas generator.
In its exhaust you have the power turbine that is driven by the hot gas exiting the turbojet, their shafts are completely separate, that is they can turn at different speeds, for instance you can run the turbojet with the power turbine locked and no drive going to the prop or water jet pump on the boat, this is the way it works in helicopters too.
When the whole aircraft or boat is switched off you can turn the propeller and power turbine without turning the turbine they are in no way connected.
All modern turboprop engines work this way, again the propeller is connected to the power turbine but not the turbojet mainshaft that drives a compressor off its turbine. The power turbine is only driven by the passage of hot gasses through its own blades!

Looking around the internet, it appears there are both geared off the turbine shaft and also working the way you describe. When I have more time, I will study up more, but it's apparent that the separate drives are quite common, which would imply they are fairly efficient.

[wolfhound]

Mercedes have said they would have quit F1 if the new power units had not come.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/26943423

Renault have allready said the same so how many engine manufacturers would have now with no change.

Ferrari and Cosworth?

Now that seems to jog the memory........

[JamesH]

Interesting. I can see where they are coming from. There is a limit to how far you can take a typical F1 IC engine - at that limit was pretty much reached. The new rules give the designers something to really go to town on. Maybe not as much as completely free engine design (see posts above!), but there is a lot for the engineers to get their teeth into. So the engine manufactures can see this as a chance to really get ahead of their rivals which would not have been possible with tiny incremental changes to the IC engine of before.

The engines are still massively powerful, the cars are still ludicrously quick, and the racing is more exciting (at least so far). They use much less fuel, but are a bit quiet.

4 pluses, one irrelevant minus.

[P38 in workshop]

Turbine?Been done http://www.f1technical.net/f1db/cars/271/lotus-56b .Maybe should be tried again with an electric motor something like the concept Jaguar C-X75 hinted at.Of course such a powertrain would be much quieter than the present units and it might be easier to get permission to hold city centre GP's.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Turbine?Been done http://www.f1technical.net/f1db/cars/271/lotus-56b .Maybe should be tried again with an electric motor something like the concept Jaguar C-X75 hinted at.Of course such a powertrain would be much quieter than the present units and it might be easier to get permission to hold city centre GP's.

There's already an issue with how quiet the current cars are.