[Tech Issue] The Sound Of The V6 Turbo PU..

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

How do they compare with a Hybrid LMP car I wonder, not having heard one in person ?

I've not heard the hybrid LMP cars in the flesh either... but from footage, they seem just as bad.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I've not heard the hybrid LMP cars in the flesh either... but from footage, they seem just as bad.

Its the future though it had to happen sooner or later davyboy...

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Its the future though it had to happen sooner or later davyboy...

Ironically it's the introduction of these monumentally expensive power plants that has precipitated the demise of two teams and put three more in serious trouble - in essence it's placed the future of F1 in peril.

There could've been a brighter future. These are just an expensive, over complex and uninteresting folly.

Rant over

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Ironically it's the introduction of these monumentally expensive power plants that has precipitated the demise of two teams and put three more in serious trouble - in essence it's placed the future of F1 in peril.

There could've been a brighter future. These are just an expensive, over complex and uninteresting folly.

Rant over

In all truth the future of F1 was probably in peril without them.

The commercial world was questioning the value of spending vast amounts of money in sponsorship for a sport that was just boring a money sucking hole to the centre of the earth where no one wanted to go.

The manufacturers were questioning the cost and value of the never ending climb to stratospheric rev limits in the quest for a few more horsepower and no end to the cost or fuel consumption in sight, so who would fund the teams in the future...

They wouldn't do it themselves so the sport would have been in dire straits if things had not changed

The model wasn't working too well.

Bernie could have funded much of it from Formula One Management but he had begun selling bits off to investors and building his own little nest egg so it wasn't as easy as that....

So really it had to change to something that would encourage people to participate (or in Bernie's eyes, fund things). The FIA didn't want to be responsible for it dying off so they gave the industry what they said they wanted.
Spectators had different ideas. The consuming desire for material excess had run its course and while it still motivates some people many are looking for something sustainable and providing them with a quality of life, more than a quantity of things. So material excess, which was in evidence in the public face of F1 was no longer 'de rigueur'.

Bernie probably didn't realise that his vision of Tilke designed colosseum's wasn't actually what people wanted or needed, but it still looked good, like F1 was doing well. The problem was he abandoned his traditional audience and took the sport to places with no tradition or motor racing history and the events became a caricature of what real F1 had been, and many tired of the excessive ticket prices and the loss of the traditional values of the sport. In some things less is more and the pursuit of more and more 'events' left the remaining audience over saturated and unsatisfied, which meant more of them turned their TV sets off...

So we have arrived at the present, a series of events in expensive colosseum's with cars that all look the same except for colour of the make up, and some very expensive engines, all fettled by a brigade of engineering commando's and run in cities or parks with little or no motor racing tradition. Only a minority of the traditional circuits remain and most of them have been emasculated.
The generation that saw the emergence of F1 has aged and most are now retired, from business or from life, or completely off the planet. The following generation doesn't seem to embrace F1 in quite the same way so is it what they want, or need, or has it simply outlived it's audience?

If it was in peril, it was in peril long before 2014, although I would concede that raising the price of engines by 200-250% ($8-9 million to $20-25million)was almost guaranteed to put all but the manufacturers and most well commercially supported teams at risk.

But the financial foundation F1 was built on was faulty long before 2014, and if it had been properly laid it wouldn't be coming home to roost.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

How do they compare with a Hybrid LMP car I wonder, not having heard one in person ?

The diesels sound pretty terrible, well there wasn't really a sound at all, just a sound of the air moving over the car, though oddly the Peugeot made more of a noise than the Audi LMP diesel. The Toyota for me is the only "proper" sounding LMP car. The Porsche doesn't sound great to me, but its all a matter of taste I guess.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Ya I know. F1 is drifting away from me for other reasons anyway, so it's not really a big deal for me. Unfortunately there are too many people feeling the same way as me so it's a bigger deal for F1 than for us, but that's another story covered extensively in other threads.

The 3.0 V12 of the mid 1990s was just unbelievable. I was lucky enough to experience that - in the flesh, at a Grand Prix around the parkland of Monza too.... like this And if somebody comes on here and tells me that the 2014 engine sounds are nicer than this, then I know they'll be lying

Ahh the 1995 Ferrari, for me, the last "proper" F1 car. Great sound, great looks and it won, well 1 race.

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

How do they compare with a Hybrid LMP car I wonder, not having heard one in person ?

The diesels sound pretty terrible, well there wasn't really a sound at all, just a sound of the air moving over the car, though oddly the Peugeot made more of a noise than the Audi LMP diesel. The Toyota for me is the only "proper" sounding LMP car. The Porsche doesn't sound great to me, but its all a matter of taste I guess.

[JeremySmith]

So this is what I hear from a reliable source(blushing to even use those words ).... The mechanics,corner workers, photographers all prefer the V6PU's because they are tired of loosing their hearing...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

So this is what I hear from a reliable source(blushing to even use those words ).... The mechanics,corner workers, photographers all prefer the V6PU's because they are tired of loosing their hearing...

I thought they used either ear defenders or ear plugs. After all the Motörhead gigs I've been to I need to and I'm seeing them again on Saturday!

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I've not heard the hybrid LMP cars in the flesh either... but from footage, they seem just as bad.

Depends which one you're talking about. That's the thing with LMP1 - each car has a totally different engine layout, and recover their energy in a different way.

The Toyota is loud. Seriously loud.

The Porsche is about as loud as an F3 car, but sounds quiet relative to the cars it competes with.

The Audi is very quiet indeed, although you'd be surprised how far its sound travels. You can still hear it after it's gone.

Strangely enough, the last Peugeot to race in 2011 was loud despite it being a diesel. You felt the grandstand vibrate at Silverstone as it passed.

[fredd1]

Well said Teretonga.
I can't believe that the lack of noise is still an issue. Really.

I like everything I read about them and hear via my TV.
In fact I'd hear even more via my TV if the talking heads could be shut up.

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

So this is what I hear from a reliable source(blushing to even use those words ).... The mechanics,corner workers, photographers all prefer the V6PU's because they are tired of loosing their hearing...

True.
The sound of earlier F1 engines was both harmful and wasteful. Not only was it painful at the time but long term or excessive exposure causes hearing loss. Those of us who have suffered that are grateful for the lower levels and more tolerable frequencies.
I was a bit concerned about the acceptance by fans of the sound of the new engines in discussion before the season started. Albert Park stopped me worrying. Just about everyone I talked too found sound levels more acceptable, fewer were wearing ear-plugs or cancelling headphones, and the more knowledgeable seemed to prefer the ability to decipher other mechanical, tyre and aero sounds from the dominant exhaust note.
Complaints about lack of noise seem to come from those who read about it or only experience TV broadcast sound.
And let's get it straight, noise is the sound of inefficient waste of energy.
I'll stick with retaining what's left of my hearing, the greater acceptability of the sport by non-revheads, and the greater efficiency being demonstrated.

[mikuni]

That's good. So the few who can and do attend races for what ever purpose are happy that it is quieter, but the millions who view it on television have mixed feelings on the sound, to put it kindly. I'm not sure if that is in fact a good thing.

I'm not saying make it louder necessarily, I don't want anything artificial, I would just like it to sound better and add more to the viewing experience.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The diesels sound pretty terrible, well there wasn't really a sound at all, just a sound of the air moving over the car....

When the first diesel Audi came out, and to this day that's the only diesel prototype I've heard, I thought that air rushing over the car sound was cool.

But then I also like hearing gearboxes, and the change in the sound of the torque over bumps. Tire noise. With most cars, the engine noise took all those other noises away. There's so much more variety with the other noises.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

In all truth the future of F1 was probably in peril without them.

If it was in peril, it was in peril long before 2014, although I would concede that raising the price of engines by 200-250% ($8-9 million to $20-25million)was almost guaranteed to put all but the manufacturers and most well commercially supported teams at risk.

But the financial foundation F1 was built on was faulty long before 2014, and if it had been properly laid it wouldn't be coming home to roost.

Yep, agree 100%.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

So this is what I hear from a reliable source(blushing to even use those words ).... The mechanics,corner workers, photographers all prefer the V6PU's because they are tired of loosing their hearing...

Hope, sorry, didn't hear a word of that

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

True.
The sound of earlier F1 engines was both harmful and wasteful. Not only was it painful at the time but long term or excessive exposure causes hearing loss. Those of us who have suffered that are grateful for the lower levels and more tolerable frequencies.
I was a bit concerned about the acceptance by fans of the sound of the new engines in discussion before the season started. Albert Park stopped me worrying. Just about everyone I talked too found sound levels more acceptable, fewer were wearing ear-plugs or cancelling headphones, and the more knowledgeable seemed to prefer the ability to decipher other mechanical, tyre and aero sounds from the dominant exhaust note.
Complaints about lack of noise seem to come from those who read about it or only experience TV broadcast sound.
And let's get it straight, noise is the sound of inefficient waste of energy.
I'll stick with retaining what's left of my hearing, the greater acceptability of the sport by non-revheads, and the greater efficiency being demonstrated.

As a fellow "Old Git" I agree wholeheartedly here Tony!
To be honest, with all of the other, far more serious problems affecting F! at the moment (and please do not blame the financial crisis just on the cost of the engines, there are many more additional reasons for that, plus, this thread is moaning about the NOISE the damned things make, not the cost!)
Cannot we just move on, grow up and accept change?
Why not take the approach that these are the Power Units we've got for the foreseeable future (let's be honest, all the talk about finances and money wasting, how wasteful would it be to scrap the Power Units now after all of the money that's gone into developing the blasted things), and turn (what some see as) a negative into as positive.
F1 has always been a technological competition as well as a driving one. These units are pretty high-tech.
The reduction in noise (as opposed to sound, a totally different concept) has brought with it a number of advantages. Forgetting the health issues regarding hearing problems for those exposed to the noise for a moment, as others have already said, without the engine drowning it all out, it's now possible to hear many other sounds coming from the cars, which if you have the ability to discern these, it can add to your enjoyment, and knowledge of what is going on.
Failing that, if you still insist on noisy engines, then I think the only solution is to scrap the whole current thing and make the engines un-silenced rotaries, those damned things could make your ears bleed at 100 yds!

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

In all truth the future of F1 was probably in peril without them.

The commercial world was questioning the value of spending vast amounts of money in sponsorship for a sport that was just boring a money sucking hole to the centre of the earth where no one wanted to go.

The manufacturers were questioning the cost and value of the never ending climb to stratospheric rev limits in the quest for a few more horsepower and no end to the cost or fuel consumption in sight, so who would fund the teams in the future...

They wouldn't do it themselves so the sport would have been in dire straits if things had not changed

The model wasn't working too well.

Bernie could have funded much of it from Formula One Management but he had begun selling bits off to investors and building his own little nest egg so it wasn't as easy as that....

So really it had to change to something that would encourage people to participate (or in Bernie's eyes, fund things). The FIA didn't want to be responsible for it dying off so they gave the industry what they said they wanted.
Spectators had different ideas. The consuming desire for material excess had run its course and while it still motivates some people many are looking for something sustainable and providing them with a quality of life, more than a quantity of things. So material excess, which was in evidence in the public face of F1 was no longer 'de rigueur'.

Bernie probably didn't realise that his vision of Tilke designed colosseum's wasn't actually what people wanted or needed, but it still looked good, like F1 was doing well. The problem was he abandoned his traditional audience and took the sport to places with no tradition or motor racing history and the events became a caricature of what real F1 had been, and many tired of the excessive ticket prices and the loss of the traditional values of the sport. In some things less is more and the pursuit of more and more 'events' left the remaining audience over saturated and unsatisfied, which meant more of them turned their TV sets off...

So we have arrived at the present, a series of events in expensive colosseum's with cars that all look the same except for colour of the make up, and some very expensive engines, all fettled by a brigade of engineering commando's and run in cities or parks with little or no motor racing tradition. Only a minority of the traditional circuits remain and most of them have been emasculated.
The generation that saw the emergence of F1 has aged and most are now retired, from business or from life, or completely off the planet. The following generation doesn't seem to embrace F1 in quite the same way so is it what they want, or need, or has it simply outlived it's audience?

If it was in peril, it was in peril long before 2014, although I would concede that raising the price of engines by 200-250% ($8-9 million to $20-25million)was almost guaranteed to put all but the manufacturers and most well commercially supported teams at risk.

But the financial foundation F1 was built on was faulty long before 2014, and if it had been properly laid it wouldn't be coming home to roost.

A corporation of equivalent size will as a rule study the market they are in continually and test for new products or marketing angles to keep them in the black and if a public company their shareholders happy with returns. It astounds me that the corporation of F1 has done (apparently) none of this and has not detected the market moving away from it. BE for all his smarts has been too clever and relied on his instincts for a deal and somehow ignored the obvious. Now he has a problem and he is the meat in the sandwich, CVC will obviously given him a pep talk and told him to sort it out and the teams have basically told him they aren't parting with any money so he can find other ways to arrange things. I would pay good money to be a fly on the wall so to speak to see what is going on.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Casper

A corporation of equivalent size will as a rule study the market they are in continually and test for new products or marketing angles to keep them in the black and if a public company their shareholders happy with returns. It astounds me that the corporation of F1 has done (apparently) none of this and has not detected the market moving away from it. BE for all his smarts has been too clever and relied on his instincts for a deal and somehow ignored the obvious. Now he has a problem and he is the meat in the sandwich, CVC will obviously given him a pep talk and told him to sort it out and the teams have basically told him they aren't parting with any money so he can find other ways to arrange things. I would pay good money to be a fly on the wall so to speak to see what is going on.

I guess because the guy's 84 years old, his view of a positive long term future is waking up tomorrow morning. There's nothing long term about him which is possibly why he couldn't give a damn about anything or anyone.

[Razor]

Renault builds a V6 that sounds like an old V12

Seriously, why can't the PU's sound like this?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Razor

Renault builds a V6 that sounds like an old V12

Seriously, why can't the PU's sound like this?

Car looks nice and sounds fine (V6 turbo). But sounds like or is comparable to an older F1 V12? No way.

Richard

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Razor

Renault builds a V6 that sounds like an old V12

Does it sound like this ?

Answer : No !

OMG is that Ferrari V12 good or what... it makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up. They've totally ruined F1 today.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Razor

Renault builds a V6 that sounds like an old V12

Seriously, why can't the PU's sound like this?

That sounds very much like the current PU's in F1, low end but with not as much the turbo whistle.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Does it sound like this ?

Answer : No !

OMG is that Ferrari V12 good or what... it makes the hair on the back of your neck stand up. They've totally ruined F1 today.

That is what I think digital has done to music recording ...

[mikuni]

Originally Posted by Razor

Renault builds a V6 that sounds like an old V12

Seriously, why can't the PU's sound like this?

doesn't do it for me, needs more revs. I think it sounds similar to the Merc f1s. I bet it makes half the power and uses twice the fuel as current f1 PU's too, not that it matters too much to me, but it is important for some people

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

That is what I think digital has done to music recording ...

You've lost me there Jeremy