[Tech Issue] The Sound Of The V6 Turbo PU..

[Smurfer]

At first I was really frustrated by the change. I really liked the previous V8's and V10's.

I had been slowly adapting though was reminded of how much I liked the sound of the V8's when I watched the evo F1 vs SLS black series video this week. Amazing sound, just love it!

I accept that we won't go back to something like that though I think that they need to do something that appeals to our senses. Sound can evoke emotion so it's important that we don't lose that aspect.

[Smurfer]

Correction to last post. It was auto express not evo.

[TRuss]

I agree Smurfer that Sound is important and that Sound can provoke emotion. That's why music is so important to our lives. I do feel though that for a long time many motorsports fans have been confusing Noise with Sound. The two are separate though. You can have plenty of amazing sounds without having them deafen you. To me and some others it seems the old engines seem to produce more noise than sound. An amazing noise granted but in the end it's just noise. It's an assault on the senses and that can be great fun, but it is also quite fatiguing. Especially over extended periods of time. And all that you can really discern from the noise is that it's loud and noisy. I think I'd rather hear a pleasing sound at lower db that I can actually enjoy for the entirety that it has been presented to me. Something that I can actually listen to, appreciate and allow me to communicate with those who are with me. Instead of looking forward to the race ending so that I can communicate with my friends in something other than a crude finger pointing sign language.

Even though this is just my opinion which I know means nothing. After all nobody in the technical working group thought to include me. It's still important to remember that things change. I think some say that is the only constant. You can either keep that in mind and evolve right alongside it or you can remove yourself. That might not be so bad though. Vintage racing is really picking up in popularity and the cars are truly the stars. Many of them Sound fantastic and at times can be pretty Noisy as well. Maybe like me you are complex and a little confused and can enjoy both.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by TRuss

I agree Smurfer that Sound is important and that Sound can provoke emotion. That's why music is so important to our lives. I do feel though that for a long time many motorsports fans have been confusing Noise with Sound. The two are separate though. You can have plenty of amazing sounds without having them deafen you. To me and some others it seems the old engines seem to produce more noise than sound. An amazing noise granted but in the end it's just noise. It's an assault on the senses and that can be great fun, but it is also quite fatiguing. Especially over extended periods of time. And all that you can really discern from the noise is that it's loud and noisy. I think I'd rather hear a pleasing sound at lower db that I can actually enjoy for the entirety that it has been presented to me. Something that I can actually listen to, appreciate and allow me to communicate with those who are with me. Instead of looking forward to the race ending so that I can communicate with my friends in something other than a crude finger pointing sign language.

Even though this is just my opinion which I know means nothing. After all nobody in the technical working group thought to include me. It's still important to remember that things change. I think some say that is the only constant. You can either keep that in mind and evolve right alongside it or you can remove yourself. That might not be so bad though. Vintage racing is really picking up in popularity and the cars are truly the stars. Many of them Sound fantastic and at times can be pretty Noisy as well. Maybe like me you are complex and a little confused and can enjoy both.

I disagree about confusing noise with sound. I think they are part and parcle of the whole thing. That's why motorsports fans will go on about the Cosworth DFV, for example, or the Matra V12.

[TRuss]

You are right to a degree. By definition noise is a type of sound. Noise is a harsh, potentially harmful and unwanted sound. It is derived from the Latin word nausea. So a noise is a sound but a sound is not necessarily a noise.

The Matra and DFV are both great sounding engines. They are also noisy...the Matra more so I'd guess. The last generation of F1 engines definitely weigh heavier on the noise side of the scale though.

[Sodemo]

There just isn't any drama any more with these engines. They used to sound spectacular, now they are so muted, hey they could probably even race at castle combe.

[P38 in workshop]

I hated the screaming V8's.Far too shrill,not to mention stuck with a very narrow power band.The turbos are a step forward but given a choice I would prefer to listen to a growling CanAm V8.No chance of such an engine ever finding its way into a Formula 1 car.

[Smurfer]

I think I'm guilty of relating the level of sound to the amount of power and/or how extreme the engine is.

I understand that there isn't a correlation between the level of sound and these aspects though there's still a feeling that they really aren't pushing the physical boundaries with these engines. The sound of the previous V8s and V10s really did give the impression that they were close to the physical limit. Again I understand this isn't the case given the 3l V10s were able to rev past 20,000 rpm which means the 2.4l V8s could have topped this if they weren't rev limited.

In summary, I think I really just want some sort of indication that F1 engines are quite extreme and pushing the boundaries of what's possible.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I hated the screaming V8's.Far too shrill,not to mention stuck with a very narrow power band.The turbos are a step forward but given a choice I would prefer to listen to a growling CanAm V8.No chance of such an engine ever finding its way into a Formula 1 car.

I'd just give my left arm to hear some variety. The engines sound slightly different to each other than before but it's such a shame they have to sound so similar. If you don't like the sound of the engines, that's it - no chance of someone coming along with something different.

But it's okay, because the new heavily-regulated engines are "innovative".

[TRuss]

As you are well aware the true variety and innovation lives in LMP1. I can't imagine F1 ever being more diverse than now because it's primarily a driver's championship.

As for limits being pushed...that hasn't been allowed since the early 70s in any form of motorsports in terms of what is truly possible. But in terms of working within the technical regulations they are always pushing the physical limits.

[chunterer]

Did I read on grandprix.com an alleged quote from Lauda suggesting if Bernie managed to bring the V8's back in to lower costs (or as an option for customer teams) that Mercedes would pull out?

I cannot believe for a second that F1 would junk these turbo engines now after all that money has been wasted on them?

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I cannot believe for a second that F1 would junk these turbo engines now after all that money has been wasted on them?

A 30% reduction in fuel consumption in one year to go more or less the same speed, due primarily to the new powertrains, is money wasted?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by miatanut

A 30% reduction in fuel consumption in one year to go more or less the same speed, due primarily to the new powertrains, is money wasted?

It's wasted if it means going back to using the V8.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by miatanut

A 30% reduction in fuel consumption in one year to go more or less the same speed, due primarily to the new powertrains, is money wasted?

There is a bit of subterfuge and muscling going on here.

1. Red Bull wants the freeze lifted. Mercedes Benz says preferably no and the rules say no without full agreement.

2. A proposal has been floated about a tier 2 for small teams so shifting the rules for the 'garagistas', (the teams without financial incentives), back to cheaper atmospheric engines would give them a cheaper run but also marginalise them, which is what Bernie would do to someone who threatened to bowl over one of his events as the three amigo's did in Austin.

3. Lauda said if F1 went back to the V8's Mercedes would be gone. No v8 engines, no Brackley, no engines of any kind, which is pretty much a force majeure.... MB have absolute power in a face to face confrontation.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by TRuss

As you are well aware the true variety and innovation lives in LMP1. I can't imagine F1 ever being more diverse than now because it's primarily a driver's championship.

The fact that Formula One is a drivers' championship does not necessarily mean that there is no room for technical diversity. In fact, being a drivers' championship might even require a large degree of diversity.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

There is a bit of subterfuge and muscling going on here.

1. Red Bull wants the freeze lifted. Mercedes Benz says preferably no and the rules say no without full agreement.

2. A proposal has been floated about a tier 2 for small teams so shifting the rules for the 'garagistas', (the teams without financial incentives), back to cheaper atmospheric engines would give them a cheaper run but also marginalise them, which is what Bernie would do to someone who threatened to bowl over one of his events as the three amigo's did in Austin.

3. Lauda said if F1 went back to the V8's Mercedes would be gone. No v8 engines, no Brackley, no engines of any kind, which is pretty much a force majeure.... MB have absolute power in a face to face confrontation.

As Honda returns to Formula One because of the new engine regulations, it is foreseeable they turn their back to series if Formula One will return to old V8-engines.

[wolfhound]

If they went back to V8's I suspect there would only be Ferrari involved and possibly Cosworth, but thats not very likely to happen.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

If they went back to V8's I suspect there would only be Ferrari involved and possibly Cosworth, but thats not very likely to happen.

You are right. Bernie doesn't want the V6's and Horner wants the freeze lifted so Bernie plays hardball with the three amigo's and Horner is reported in Autosport saying if the freeze is not lifted a ridiculous spending war will result!

So if they can't get their own way they try to frighten everyone to jumping into a knee jerk situation. However Lauda was clear. Go to V8's we depart and Honda would rethink their commitment immediately too.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

It's wasted if it means going back to using the V8.

I read that sentence as meaning as of this moment, the money spent on the new powertrains could be considered wasted, but that the companies who did the wasting would object to any change to the powertrain rules on account of all the money wasted on them.

Maybe I was reading things into it.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

You are right. Bernie doesn't want the V6's and Horner wants the freeze lifted so Bernie plays hardball with the three amigo's and Horner is reported in Autosport saying if the freeze is not lifted a ridiculous spending war will result!

So if they can't get their own way they try to frighten everyone to jumping into a knee jerk situation. However Lauda was clear. Go to V8's we depart and Honda would rethink their commitment immediately too.

What an absolute mess.

[P38 in workshop]

If Bernie can't throw money at the struggling teams because of existing agreements,how can he suggest using engines other than those whose use has been agreed?

Which is supposed to be the weakest at present?

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

What an absolute mess.

And e wonder why Sponsors question their involvement, others turn away to use their budget in something less stupid, Horner says we shouldn't air our washing in public, then try's to scare everyone by declaring a spending war if he can't get the freeze lifted.

Its a debacle and the only thing missing is someone to come along and start an alternative that ran properly and the stack of cards would collapse.

It really has become a circus and a joke.

[Paradise City]

People are reading Eccelstone's remarks particularly his interview with Jordan and taking them at face value.

That interview was one calculated exercise in piling on the pressure to the midfield teams in order to maximise his bargaining clout. He played the same game with Silverstone, hammering the life out of them whilst given Sao Paulo's dilapidated track sympathetic treatment.

He basically put the entire blame onto the teams and downplayed his own responsibility.

He can help any team if he wants to.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Its a debacle and the only thing missing is someone to come along and start an alternative that ran properly and the stack of cards would collapse.

It really has become a circus and a joke.

That is where BE has been really clever. He has contracted the teams he wants to a long term contract so they (supposedly) can't seek an alternative or if one is offered go take up that opportunity.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

People are reading Eccelstone's remarks particularly his interview with Jordan and taking them at face value.

That interview was one calculated exercise in piling on the pressure to the midfield teams in order to maximise his bargaining clout. He played the same game with Silverstone, hammering the life out of them whilst given Sao Paulo's dilapidated track sympathetic treatment.

He basically put the entire blame onto the teams and downplayed his own responsibility.

He can help any team if he wants to.

I agree with this completely.
He is more than a ringmaster, he's a puppeteer.