[Tech Issue] The Sound Of The V6 Turbo PU..

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Casper

That is where BE has been really clever. He has contracted the teams he wants to a long term contract so they (supposedly) can't seek an alternative or if one is offered go take up that opportunity.

Yes he's tied them up so much so that it long term on his terms and there's no opportunity to retract without a cost. Some people long for security with a contract and can't get one, others get one and find they have a noose around their neck.

[TRuss]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

The fact that Formula One is a drivers' championship does not necessarily mean that there is no room for technical diversity. In fact, being a drivers' championship might even require a large degree of diversity.

I'm not saying that it is doesn't or that I feel that way. I'd love to see more technical diversity but, that has clearly not been the focus for the last twenty years and certainly not into the foreseeable future. I would also guess that for many fans this is acceptable as long as the engines are loud and the racing is good. Recently it seems having loud engines is the more important of the two for many.

[wolfhound]

Loud engines is a thing Bernie raises when he gets asked a question about whats wrong with F1. From what I can see a this stage its just a pure diversion tactic.

The three smaller teams are going to have to play to their one real strength they have at the moment and that is to work together to deal with Bernie. If they let him divide them then they are gone and may as well move out of F1 because they will be calling in the liquidator very soon after.
I feel that if the three teams use that strength then they should get a result. After all the current agreements are individual between each team and Bernie not an overall concorde.

I have been surprised that Jean Todt has not been mention seen or heard throughout the last few weeks. I often wonder is he working on something and waiting for the right time or is unable to do anything. From his time as boss at Ferrari & Peugeot he was a very effective leader so I wonder what has happened to that?

[VIVA GT]

[QUOTE=wolfhound;3473617]Loud engines is a thing Bernie raises when he gets asked a question about whats wrong with F1. From what I can see a this stage its just a pure diversion tactic.

The three smaller teams are going to have to play to their one real strength they have at the moment and that is to work together to deal with Bernie. If they let him divide them then they are gone and may as well move out of F1 because they will be calling in the liquidator very soon after.
I feel that if the three teams use that strength then they should get a result. After all the current agreements are individual between each team and Bernie not an overall concorde.

I have been surprised that Jean Todt has not been mention seen or heard throughout the last few weeks. I often wonder is he working on something and waiting for the right time or is unable to do anything. From his time as boss at Ferrari & Peugeot he was a very effective leader so I wonder what has happened to that?[/QUOTE]

A valid point. Compared to his predecessors of Moseley & Balestre, Mr Todt has kept a very low profile and could be accused of being conspicuous by his absence!
This is something I'd not really considered (until now), but really, the FIA should surely be stepping in and adding their weight to try and resolve this problem. Isn't it in their best interests to make sure that F1 doesn't fold, or at best, become the farcical laughing stock it appears to be becoming?

[Teretonga]

[QUOTE=VIVA GT;3473630]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Loud engines is a thing Bernie raises when he gets asked a question about whats wrong with F1. From what I can see a this stage its just a pure diversion tactic.

The three smaller teams are going to have to play to their one real strength they have at the moment and that is to work together to deal with Bernie. If they let him divide them then they are gone and may as well move out of F1 because they will be calling in the liquidator very soon after.
I feel that if the three teams use that strength then they should get a result. After all the current agreements are individual between each team and Bernie not an overall concorde.

I have been surprised that Jean Todt has not been mention seen or heard throughout the last few weeks. I often wonder is he working on something and waiting for the right time or is unable to do anything. From his time as boss at Ferrari & Peugeot he was a very effective leader so I wonder what has happened to that?[/QUOTE]

A valid point. Compared to his predecessors of Moseley & Balestre, Mr Todt has kept a very low profile and could be accused of being conspicuous by his absence!
This is something I'd not really considered (until now), but really, the FIA should surely be stepping in and adding their weight to try and resolve this problem. Isn't it in their best interests to make sure that F1 doesn't fold, or at best, become the farcical laughing stock it appears to be becoming?

If you entered an agreement as regulator, with six votes, and Bernie had six and the six big teams had six, then you would realise that if Bernie and the teams disagreed with you, then you were on a hiding to nothing, but that is the way it is, unless it falls over.
If that happens then the 100 year rights revert back to the FIA. So what would you do? Fix it or let it fall over?

If you were a mouse in a room full of cats but you knew how to solve their problems what would you do?
Try to herd the cats, or make out you were a paperweight and act like a statue?
Todt may have decided to let the cats rule themselves, that's what they wanted, but be waiting for them to have a big catfight and self destruct. Then he can take back to 100 year rights and take up the rights as sole regulator.

This situation is about as political as it can be and whoever holds the commercial rights holds the power. Bernie knows that the three loose teams in Austin who threatened to boycott had the power to completely wreck his fiefdom and that is why he appeared disoriented in Austin.

A week later he had a plan. Marginalise the three amigo's or lose them completely. That's why Monisha K feels there is an agenda. Her intuition is telling her the power is shifting to the tight five or six on the board and Bernie is shocked by their audacity so he sees that as betrayal and wants to remove or neutralise them.

Six x 3 is 18, so lets keep the inner sanctum group going, preserve our rights, and exclude everyone else or keep them on the periphery....

If they had five constructors, five small teams using customer cars, could they keep the whole thing going.... and the five inner teams keep the control and most of the team money? They can use the money supply to keep the other five in line.

It's not about money. It's about power, (and not horsepower).

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

There is a bit of subterfuge and muscling going on here.

1. Red Bull wants the freeze lifted. Mercedes Benz says preferably no and the rules say no without full agreement.

2. A proposal has been floated about a tier 2 for small teams so shifting the rules for the 'garagistas', (the teams without financial incentives), back to cheaper atmospheric engines would give them a cheaper run but also marginalise them, which is what Bernie would do to someone who threatened to bowl over one of his events as the three amigo's did in Austin.

3. Lauda said if F1 went back to the V8's Mercedes would be gone. No v8 engines, no Brackley, no engines of any kind, which is pretty much a force majeure.... MB have absolute power in a face to face confrontation.

And then there was this....
Your turning into Bernie's lapdog aren't you Christian..

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116729

[Nicholosophy]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

And then there was this....
Your turning into Bernie's lapdog aren't you Christian..

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/116729

That and he knows that Renault could quickly throw together an excellent V8 while the Merc would probably be down on power again.

[Paradise City]

Yes, and it would be absolute nonsense to shelve an engine that they sunk a king's ransom into.

The gall of Horner. The sport is in deep crisis and he's still can't see past his own hide.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Nicholosophy

That and he knows that Renault could quickly throw together an excellent V8 while the Merc would probably be down on power again.

This is all getting dreadfully silly!

I am fairly certain that I haven't yet lost my marbles, but I do feel that some of you appear to have very short memories. Was it not Renault that, just a very few years ago, stated that they would withdraw from the supply of F1 power units unless the units became more relevant to their "average" car engines. It was for this very reason that a turbo powered 1.6 litre engine was chosen.

All the power unit providers were consulted heavily, and, along with the teams and the FIA, they drew up the regulations for the new units, the only compromise being made in that a V6 was mandated over the original idea of a straight 4. All the teams/engine providers had input in the drawing up of the regulations, and they all started designing/building the new units at the same time.

Now, just because Mercedes has designed a more efficient unit, the opposition are spitting their dummies out. Furthermore, has it not occurred to anyone else that it is not just the power unit in the Mercedes that is giving the Mercedes team an advantage? It is the whole package, power unit, chassis and body combined to give them the edge over everyone else. This surely must be the case, otherwise we would be seeing McLaren or Force India winning as often as the Mercs.

My thoughts, for what they are worth, are that if the V8 was to be re-introduced then Renault would withdraw because that unit is of no real relevance to them.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

This is all getting dreadfully silly!

I am fairly certain that I haven't yet lost my marbles, but I do feel that some of you appear to have very short memories. Was it not Renault that, just a very few years ago, stated that they would withdraw from the supply of F1 power units unless the units became more relevant to their "average" car engines. It was for this very reason that a turbo powered 1.6 litre engine was chosen.

All the power unit providers were consulted heavily, and, along with the teams and the FIA, they drew up the regulations for the new units, the only compromise being made in that a V6 was mandated over the original idea of a straight 4. All the teams/engine providers had input in the drawing up of the regulations, and they all started designing/building the new units at the same time.

Now, just because Mercedes has designed a more efficient unit, the opposition are spitting their dummies out. Furthermore, has it not occurred to anyone else that it is not just the power unit in the Mercedes that is giving the Mercedes team an advantage? It is the whole package, power unit, chassis and body combined to give them the edge over everyone else. This surely must be the case, otherwise we would be seeing McLaren or Force India winning as often as the Mercs.

My thoughts, for what they are worth, are that if the V8 was to be re-introduced then Renault would withdraw because that unit is of no real relevance to them.

Participating in F1 with any engine is relevant to them - in principle - costs of redesign aside. It's Ferrari who are peddling sportscars that are conscious of that. Either Horner has gone insane with his desire to just dump the costly-to-develop V8 in which case he should be sectioned or he wants the competitive Renaults back to arrest the Red Bull slump. Maybe there's a third, hidden esoteric reason we are not privy to as why he wants the V8's back. But until that reason manifests itself the most logical possibility is the possibility that I'm going to go with.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Yes, and it would be absolute nonsense to shelve an engine that they sunk a king's ransom into.

The gall of Horner. The sport is in deep crisis and he's still can't see past his own hide.

He's in love.

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by Casper

He's in love.

He's engaged

http://news.sky.com/story/1370993/ge...am-boss-horner

[VIVA GT]

I think that this explains Horner's distraction.

[wolfhound]

I wonder who else in F1 will be invited to the big day. There was only one team boss invited to Bernie's most recent wedding and he seems to like old spice which might explain why said team boss now want's his old V8 back.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

He's engaged

http://news.sky.com/story/1370993/ge...am-boss-horner

It's all clear to me now - the erratic behaviour. She'd drive anyone postal.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Yes, and it would be absolute nonsense to shelve an engine that they sunk a king's ransom into.

The gall of Horner. The sport is in deep crisis and he's still can't see past his own hide.

Its an extremely irresponsible stance for Horner to take...

[chillibowl]

playing devils advocate a bit but he is just making a case for his team.

the engine rules need to opened up again so that the other two (potentially three other engine manus) can get themselves sorted so we can get back to a formula where there is more then one competitive team.

Merc and the teams which they supply got their advantage and made the most from it so other then coming to some sort of commercial agreement to subsidize Merc and their customers for the loss of that advantage in years 2,3 etc then they should quit the public bickering and make some sort of deal.

certainly more teams being more competitive next year is in the interest of CVC so maybe they should pony up some dough too.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

playing devils advocate a bit but he is just making a case for his team.

the engine rules need to opened up again so that the other two (potentially three other engine manus) can get themselves sorted so we can get back to a formula where there is more then one competitive team.

Merc and the teams which they supply got their advantage and made the most from it so other then coming to some sort of commercial agreement to subsidize Merc and their customers for the loss of that advantage in years 2,3 etc then they should quit the public bickering and make some sort of deal.

certainly more teams being more competitive next year is in the interest of CVC so maybe they should pony up some dough too.

But this isn't just a matter of the Mercedes power unit being far superior to those from Renault and Ferrari. If that was the case, then the results of the last 18 races would have had Merc power in the 1st six places.

As I wrote yesterday, this is surely a case of the Mercedes team having the best overall package coupled with a pair of damn quick pedallers. This is no different to the last 4 years when the Red Bulls were the class of the field and before that the Ferraris.

What would the point be if every time a team had an advantage that the rules/regulations were changed to allow the opposition to leap-frog the leaders? If that was to be the case, then they might as well be racing Formula Fords or some such similar series.

[chillibowl]

i was under the impression that due to Merc's engine design allowed for better/smaller/cooler packaging of the bodywork around the engine. not an expert on the engine changes so could be wrong but i thought there was more of a connection between their engine and aero work.

and a number of changes were allowed to help team close the gap to RB during their period of dominance..usually rules aimed at limiting RB's advantages so its sort of always been this way.

for me i suppose it comes down to how long should a team get to hold on to an advantage for?

if they allow for improvement, Merc will still have an advantage it just wont be absolute anymore and im fine with that.

i am a fan of innovation but i also want to see more then one competitive team on the grid. i want to see how the disadvantaged teams can claw the difference back.

at the very least the possibility of being able to improve should be on the table and with the engine freeze teams cant fundamentally improve.

its like the ban on testing in that not allowing for improvement should never be an enforceable rule . sports teams should be allowed to improve period.

[Oldtony]

The whole F1 situation seems to have gone into self destruct mode and sometimes I get the feeling that an underlying cause is threads like this, and others which are heavily critical, mostly on the basis of personal perception.
The noise thing is a case in point. There was a huge level of criticism of "the sound of the V6 PU" even before most of those voicing it had heard one running, let alone in a race situation. This was jumped on by Bernie for his own devices. I get the impression that many of those complaining are either voicing second hand opinions or have only hear reproductions of the sound on the net or on TV. Those who have actually been to an F1 race this year seem to be content themselves, but are worried that the great unwashed only understand LOUD.
There are constant complaints about the racing. Why??????
I've been interested since Moss/Brooks/Vanwall and watched via any available means. Live, TV, Newsreels (remember then) and Docos. To me the racing has never been as consistently good, and watchable, as this season. The occasional race maybe, but generally if we got 2 or 3 good races in a season we thought it was a classic era. Why all the whingeing.
We have three, next year four, major manufacturers supplying advanced technology PUs that are giving similar lap speeds and plenty of torque at the wheels to allow drivers to demonstrate their ability. The battles all the way down the field are intense. Certainly one team is dominant. When was it not so?
Is the perceived self interest and lack of respect for the sport being demonstrated by owners, team principals, and the media coverage anything to do with that lack of respect and satisfaction in blogs being constantly demonstrated.
In the end of course this is part of the reason for falling sponsorship and of confidence in the ability of the sport to attract investment.
The troubles of the small teams are not new, just count the number of teams that have come and gone in the past.
By all means let a blog like this be an exchange of ideas and opinions, but when everything you read is negative it gets to be counterproductive.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

The whole F1 situation seems to have gone into self destruct mode and sometimes I get the feeling that an underlying cause is threads like this, and others which are heavily critical, mostly on the basis of personal perception.
The noise thing is a case in point. There was a huge level of criticism of "the sound of the V6 PU" even before most of those voicing it had heard one running, let alone in a race situation. This was jumped on by Bernie for his own devices. I get the impression that many of those complaining are either voicing second hand opinions or have only hear reproductions of the sound on the net or on TV. Those who have actually been to an F1 race this year seem to be content themselves, but are worried that the great unwashed only understand LOUD.
There are constant complaints about the racing. Why??????
I've been interested since Moss/Brooks/Vanwall and watched via any available means. Live, TV, Newsreels (remember then) and Docos. To me the racing has never been as consistently good, and watchable, as this season. The occasional race maybe, but generally if we got 2 or 3 good races in a season we thought it was a classic era. Why all the whingeing.
We have three, next year four, major manufacturers supplying advanced technology PUs that are giving similar lap speeds and plenty of torque at the wheels to allow drivers to demonstrate their ability. The battles all the way down the field are intense. Certainly one team is dominant. When was it not so?
Is the perceived self interest and lack of respect for the sport being demonstrated by owners, team principals, and the media coverage anything to do with that lack of respect and satisfaction in blogs being constantly demonstrated.
In the end of course this is part of the reason for falling sponsorship and of confidence in the ability of the sport to attract investment.
The troubles of the small teams are not new, just count the number of teams that have come and gone in the past.
By all means let a blog like this be an exchange of ideas and opinions, but when everything you read is negative it gets to be counterproductive.

I have to say sir that this is very well put, thank you. Without showing disrespect to some of the other postings in this thread, (including maybe my own) I think that this answer is a very 'grown up' one!

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

The whole F1 situation seems to have gone into self destruct mode and sometimes I get the feeling that an underlying cause is threads like this, and others which are heavily critical, mostly on the basis of personal perception.
The noise thing is a case in point. There was a huge level of criticism of "the sound of the V6 PU" even before most of those voicing it had heard one running, let alone in a race situation. This was jumped on by Bernie for his own devices. I get the impression that many of those complaining are either voicing second hand opinions or have only hear reproductions of the sound on the net or on TV. Those who have actually been to an F1 race this year seem to be content themselves, but are worried that the great unwashed only understand LOUD.
There are constant complaints about the racing. Why??????
I've been interested since Moss/Brooks/Vanwall and watched via any available means. Live, TV, Newsreels (remember then) and Docos. To me the racing has never been as consistently good, and watchable, as this season. The occasional race maybe, but generally if we got 2 or 3 good races in a season we thought it was a classic era. Why all the whingeing.
We have three, next year four, major manufacturers supplying advanced technology PUs that are giving similar lap speeds and plenty of torque at the wheels to allow drivers to demonstrate their ability. The battles all the way down the field are intense. Certainly one team is dominant. When was it not so?
Is the perceived self interest and lack of respect for the sport being demonstrated by owners, team principals, and the media coverage anything to do with that lack of respect and satisfaction in blogs being constantly demonstrated.
In the end of course this is part of the reason for falling sponsorship and of confidence in the ability of the sport to attract investment.
The troubles of the small teams are not new, just count the number of teams that have come and gone in the past.
By all means let a blog like this be an exchange of ideas and opinions, but when everything you read is negative it gets to be counterproductive.

People should say what's on their hearts and if something specifically stated is wrong, then we as a collective can tease that out.

What I don't like is mass appeals to "be nicer". I don't care about that. I deliver honest and forthright commentary and I pay no heed to whether it's "nice" or not or whether other people are sufficiently "nice". If people became anxious and self conscious about whether their remarks are sufficiently "nice" then the conversation here will became facile and that won't help the sport one iota.

Let's put it this way; if online commentary is inflicting palpable damage to this sport, then this sport is suffering from more fundamental problems than I had originally assumed.

There's an equilibrium that was achieved circa the late 80's early 90's that was perfect. That equilibrium was the balance between TV and sport. It was watchable and it was real sport, the way the 50's often wasn't watchable say. The trauma of Schumacher's supremacy and I think the expanding sophistication and sensitivity of the internet destroyed that equilibrium and now the sport is slowly jettisoning the sporting quality and embracing gimmicks. I don't know where the driver ends and the software begins anymore. I don't have confidence that a given driver has actually won the race through his exertions and this diminishes the authenticity of the result for me. That's me. If I was being "nicer" about this stuff I would be compromising my honesty. I won't do that.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

The whole F1 situation seems to have gone into self destruct mode and sometimes I get the feeling that an underlying cause is threads like this, and others which are heavily critical, mostly on the basis of personal perception.

My first season was 1967 and my last one was about five years ago.

If the on-track action is good, great. I got into it for the cars, and the sport has been on a 30 year trajectory to block development of the cars, supposedly to reduce costs, and it has in fact has the opposite effect of ensuring a very direct relationship between money and success.

That has led to the place F1 is in now. Bernie is finally reaching his dream of pushing all the little teams out. I liked the little teams. The little teams, doing lots of interesting, innovative stuff were what attracted me to F1. I find it ironic that Bernie's effort to make it big time and all about the "show", is in the process of killing it altogether.

Really, I should be rooting for this process to reach its ultimate end, the complete collapse of the sport, because I am sure that out of the ashes it would be reborn much more like it was in the 1950's-1980's, but I have a hard time rooting for destruction.

[wolfhound]

Bernie wants V10's back. I know they sound great but is really the direction F1 should be going? Is he makjing noise to divert our attention from something else?

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns29626.html

[Casper]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Bernie wants V10's back. I know they sound great but is really the direction F1 should be going? Is he makjing noise to divert our attention from something else?

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns29626.html

BE spouting BS just to say something.