[Team] Haas: Gene Haas of NASCAR attempting to start F1 team

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Casper

Turning that around would imply that Adrian Newey has a hard road and a lot to learn if he gets into boats? I really don't think it would present too many problems to a switched on engineer familiar with composites and who can use a calculator. Apart from that there are a lot of ex F1 guys working in the US who have this knowledge already.

As F1 and sailing are my two sports, I view the prospect of Adrian Newey getting in on the design of an America's Cup boat with fascination. They are two very different animals, though I think the recent changes to America's Cup rules should make Newey much more relevant than he would have been in the rag-and-stick era a few years back. I'm sure his contribution to hydrofoils and rigid wing-sails could be considerable, and it would be interesting to see what he might make of the general aero-drag on the hull and rig. He'll need a good boat designer to sit alongside him though.

I would love to see Adrian Newey get on board with BAR. (That's Ben Ainslie Racing, for those who only know the other BAR .)

[Greem]

He already is: http://www.theguardian.com/sport/201...mericas-cup-f1

[old man]

Getting back to the thread topic it is reported that Haas has taken on Dave O'Neill as Team Manager (ex Marrusia) and the auction of the remaining 700 lots has been postponed. Looking at the things that are being offered and assuming that Mr O'Neill knows all about what is required to run a team it would seem logical that he would want to save himself the hassle of sourcing all the equipment if he could get it all at once.

No doubt certain things like GP3 cars and Marrusia team clothing or body panels will not be needed so a bit of a sort out is now required and a new sale will come in due course.

Next episode awaited with interest

[wolfhound]

Is Haas going to completely outsourse his F1 as Dallara seams to be starting work for his F1 car?
Dalllara make lots of single seaters but how many in chassis competive classes?
Can't think of any, while techically F3 is open there are currently no real competitors in it.
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns29818.html

[bella]

i read in autosport this week they designed a daytona prototype that's competing this weekend.

i really should know this, but they're responsible for the 3.5 and gp2 cars aren't they? in which case they've already created a competitive well behaved backmarker f1 car several times

[ger80]

Dallara used to build the Audi LMP's and HRT F1 chassis - not sure how much they were also involved in the design of the HRT.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by ger80

Dallara used to build the Audi LMP's and HRT F1 chassis - not sure how much they were also involved in the design of the HRT.

They built the first HRT but later ones were built by Kolles as far as I know.

[ger80]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

They built the first HRT but later ones were built by Kolles as far as I know.

Yes, I think so as well

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

They built the first HRT but later ones were built by Kolles as far as I know.

The F110 was built and designed by Dallara but according to this, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...no#2011_season, Hispania had signed a deal in the summer of 2010 with Toyota Motorsport GmBH in an attempt to incorporate what was left of Toyota Racing's TF 110 project into the HRT F111 but this fell through because of financial uncertainty surrounding HRT. However, it was rumoured designer Geoff Willis had enough info on the TF 110 to use it in the HRT F111, though according to HRT driver Narain Karthikeyan the F111 would largely be based on its predecessor, the Hispania F110.

Dallara also make the DW 12 IndyCar.

[wolfhound]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Dallara also make the DW 12 IndyCar.

Yes and it only competes with Dallara DW12's.

Dallara are very good at building single seat racing cars however the vast majority of them only compete with other Dallaras and not other marques. This means that Dallara are very good at making lots of cars but I would question their ability to design and build cars for an environment as competitive as F1 is currently. They may also be a bit short of skills in integrating hybrid systems into race cars.

I for one would not go to Dallara if I wanted a new F1 car but they would be a safe bet for a F3 car. I may be proved wrong but we will only know that in about 18 months time.

[bella]

they make very well behaved cars to exact specifications from customers.

i think what you're trying to question is whether they would be able to develop a car at a pace that f1 demands. it's all very well designing a car within a set of regulations that is capable of producing a laptime of x, but producing endless updates and modifications is not only a big financial cost to be born by the customer, but actually quite tricky to get right when you have a design department set up for long leadtimes and if anything, single annual update packages for the cars. of course, if they were responsible for more than just the crayon work they'd have to work with their suppliers too to achieve much shorter leadtimes.

[wolfhound]

I agree with you Bella. That is what I was questioning about in relation to Dallara's abilities. F1 is a completely different environment to the modern production race car manufacturer.
If you look at the production race companies in the 1970's and 1980's they would have been in a much better position to go into F1. At that time they were making cars that were in competition with other car marques who were developing their cars also. The pace of development may not have been at the same rate as F1 but it was still there.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Yes and it only competes with Dallara DW12's.

Dallara are very good at building single seat racing cars however the vast majority of them only compete with other Dallaras and not other marques. This means that Dallara are very good at making lots of cars but I would question their ability to design and build cars for an environment as competitive as F1 is currently. They may also be a bit short of skills in integrating hybrid systems into race cars.

I for one would not go to Dallara if I wanted a new F1 car but they would be a safe bet for a F3 car. I may be proved wrong but we will only know that in about 18 months time.

I'm well aware of that. They also built and designed it's predecesor the IR5.

They do make good cars for the lower formulae, their dominance as a chassis manufacturer is testament to that but I don't know if they could design and build a car for an environment like F1. The HRT episode and the F110 they desinged and built would suggest they can't but alot of the problems were down to Dallara not being payed on time. The aborted hook up with Toyota was due to HRT's finances. As it is Dallra had enough issues designing and building the DW 12, particularly with balance and weight distribution, solved largely by a chunk of metal in the nose, so maybe the jump from lower formulae to upper formulae is quite a lot harder.

[climb]

Originally Posted by bella

they make very well behaved cars to exact specifications from customers.

i think what you're trying to question is whether they would be able to develop a car at a pace that f1 demands. it's all very well designing a car within a set of regulations that is capable of producing a laptime of x, but producing endless updates and modifications is not only a big financial cost to be born by the customer, but actually quite tricky to get right when you have a design department set up for long leadtimes and if anything, single annual update packages for the cars. of course, if they were responsible for more than just the crayon work they'd have to work with their suppliers too to achieve much shorter leadtimes.

From what I know and remember, Hrt's 2010 chassis was the first one to be homologated that year, despite the financial troubles of the Spanish outfit; some months ago the Dallara F1 programme was stopped for the same reason, then Kolles came in, and Dallara built 2 F1 cars in 3 weeks...
I know that F1 is another world anyways, but a solution like Dallara is surely more viable than setting up a production site from scratch.
In the next years I think Haas will go progressively in-sourcing, unless the current package proves very competitive.

[wdave0]

Dallara remind me of Lola from days of old, design and build a winning car for any class up to but not including F1. For F1 Dallara would be an excellent production facility for someone else's design.

[old man]

Tend to agree with the previous post, as has already been said several times, one thing to design and build spec chassis, quite another to match and keep up with F1. I would bet that there are more people at Red Bull researching, designing and building two cars than at Dallara designing and building several hundred… these are two different worlds

But Mr Haas, we are assured, is highly successful in NASCAR and knows what it is all about.

[rwintle]

Possibly slightly relevant - there was, as I recall, also a lot of complaining from IndyCar teams about the cost of parts for the DW12 in the first season it was introduced (i.e., a lot higher than expected). I'd be worried about in-season development costs I think.

Surely* Mr. Haas knows what he's getting into though.


*not sure at all

[Richard C]

I am very confused about the Dallara bashing. I keep wondering...

If you want to hire someone to build an open wheel race car who do you hire? I am not that familiar with the industry but as far as a complete end-to-end car (minus PSU) who else is building F1 cars (or has built one recently) other than the current teams? I think the only answer is Dallara (Wirth at a stretch IMHO).

Now the question of competitiveness and ease of development of a Dallara F1 car (or frankly any new car from a startup team) is different topic.

Either I am hearing what I want to hear, but I tend to think that this 2016 car is expected (by Haas) to just get them over the hump until they take over and manage their own design and construction (starting in 2017 or 2018?). Now nobody is going to enter into a series and say "Hey, its our first year, we don't know what we are doing, we are running a car that we didn't design, etc., so we are really going to suck.", but I "think" at a level that is what they expect to happen even if they don't say that publicly. Granted, you have to show up and try to win each race, otherwise why do it. But you know what I mean.

The real question is if they accept the reality (years at the back before you even consider reaching mid-field), or if they are believing their own public PR campaign and think they actually will be competitive within a few years let alone the first year! There is always room for an underfunded and/or new team to somehow find lightning in a bottle, but "magic will happen" should not be part of anyone's business plan.

Richard

[Paradise City]

The Dallara bashing is about somersaulting Dullaras in Indycar, slow Dullaras in early 90s F1 and probably fatigue at their near monotonous strangle hold on many junior single seaters for yonks and yonks. Right or wrong, that's your chronic Dallara fatigue.

[Mike Harte]

Is it not just a simple case of money, or more realistally, a huge lack of money?

It would seem obvious to me that the cars that are at the sharp end of "today's" Formula 1 are those that have had gigantic financial resources behind them, that have enabled their teams to hire the most talented technicians and engineers who have waved their magic dust over the concepts of their designs.

Is it not just as possible that if Dallara, or their clients, were throwing that much dosh at their concepts that they might also achieve similar results to that which the Red Bull's and Mercedes' guys have done (please excuse terrible grammar - brain fade at this time of evening)?

Having said the above, I must be honest and say that, regardless of how many dollars Haas throws at this project, I do not expect his cars to be anywhere else than towards the back of the field for at least the first year or two if not more.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by rwintle

Possibly slightly relevant - there was, as I recall, also a lot of complaining from IndyCar teams about the cost of parts for the DW12 in the first season it was introduced (i.e., a lot higher than expected). I'd be worried about in-season development costs I think.

Surely* Mr. Haas knows what he's getting into though.


*not sure at all

It wasn't just the cost of the parts but you couldn't go to a 3rd party supplier, just Dallara.

[bella]

course you couldn't. that's part of the deal with having a single make series - the costs for developing the chassis and a small profit (after all, it's a business not a charity) are mostly recouped (sp) through the cost of spare parts. back when gp2 was in its first few seasons one team was caught manufacturing their own spare bits for the car after a couple of rear wing failures. they were publicly shamed and kicked out of an event, and quite rightly because evidently they couldn't produce stuff to the same standards.

until you have another company producing a car there's not going to be any competition.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by old man

But Mr Haas, we are assured, is highly successful in NASCAR and knows what it is all about.

NASCAR is just as hard if not harder to be a competitor in as F1, 38 weekends in a year and they run very close together which is one thing F1 does not do as a rule. I think he knows what is involved, he was in motorsport before a lot of people here were even breathing.

[wdave0]

Originally Posted by Casper

NASCAR is just as hard if not harder to be a competitor in as F1, 38 weekends in a year and they run very close together which is one thing F1 does not do as a rule. I think he knows what is involved, he was in motorsport before a lot of people here were even breathing.

The biggest difference is that in NASCAR a team can be fully competitive with 100% outsourced car, the technical differences between teams are primarily set-up and execution, not in the creation of the car.

[old man]

Originally Posted by Casper

NASCAR is just as hard if not harder to be a competitor in as F1, 38 weekends in a year and they run very close together which is one thing F1 does not do as a rule. I think he knows what is involved, he was in motorsport before a lot of people here were even breathing.

I didn't say was not as hard, it is totally different and technical development seems to me to be a world away from F1. I don't mean it is not there, it is totally different. The NASCAR business model is far superior to F1, the distribution of income much better and close racing is certainly the name of the game, the regulations dictate it from what I can see.

No, my point is that I feel we need new teams like Haas and many more but the way things are in F1 to start up from scratch is a long term project that they will find it difficult to fund and keep going. I am concerned that guys willing to put their money into F1 underestimate what is required, what rate of development of the aero package in particular is required to simply keep up. They are allowed to outsource the PU and to encourage them I feel they should be allowed to buy year old cars at least at first. Why should they have to build their own?